Should "patriotism" look the same to blacks as it does to whites?

[blackascoal]

I say no it does not nor should anyone expect that it should.

Like most African-Americans I love my country, but I maintain a more critical perspective of America and its history than most whites. I think this is a critical component in the discussion of race in America.

I believe that all discussions of race in America should begin with the factual knowledge that African-Americans have been in this country since 1619, almost 400 years, yet have been only relatively free for a mere 42 years.

I believe that most white Americans clearly understand why the chasms in what is "patriotic" exists and it explains why the concocted "controversy" about Rev. Wright and the teachings of black liberation theology have not led to the end of Obama's bid for the presidency.

Martin Luther King would have been, and in many cases, has been called "unpatriotic" for his stance on the Vietnam war .. a stance that became the sentiment of most Americans.

Americans have just come out of nearly 8 years of so-called super-patriotism and having republicans call anyone "unamerican" and "unpatriotic" who dared question American "authority" to do whatever it wants throughout the world .. and America is fed up with the super-patriots who also usually happen to also be super-chickenhawks who have never served in the military.

McCain in on a tour of America demonstrating how much of a patriot he and his family have been, but the truth is that a patriot should be defined by their work and aspirations for a better America for all of its people, not by association to war and excusing America for its ills.

Agreeing with Bush on the attack on Iraq was decidely not in the best interest of this nation or its people.

What is patriotic is defined by perspective and validated or invalidated by results.

 

[Little-Acorn]

and having republicans call anyone "unamerican" and "unpatriotic" who dared question American "authority" to do whatever it wants throughout the world

When somebody regurgitates this tired tripe, I know they aren't interested in discussing actual issues.

(yawn)

 

[blackascoal]

When somebody regurgitates this tired tripe, I know they aren't interested in discussing actual issues.

(yawn)

I fully understand that you are incapable of discussing this truth.

I'm looking for posters who are.

Thanks anyway.

 

[Little-Acorn]

I fully understand that you are incapable of discussing this truth.

I'm looking for posters who are.

Try looking in a fairly tale book, science fiction novel, or DemocratUnderground BBS.

Thanks anyway.

Happy to help.

 

[blackascoal]

Try looking in a fairly tale book, science fiction novel, or DemocratUnderground BBS.


Happy to help.

Irrespective of your own political deficiencies, there are quite a few intelligent posters on this site and I'm betting on good conversation, which is not determined by agreeing with me.

In any case, I'm betting that I won't have to bump my own thread for a response.

How about you?

 

[Little-Acorn]

I'm betting on good conversation, which is not determined by agreeing with me.

When you start your thread by smearing half the potential respondents with a falsehood, "good conversation" is not what you're betting on.

Better luck next time.

 

[blackascoal]

When you start your thread by smearing half the potential respondents with a falsehood, "good conversation" is not what you're betting on.

Better luck next time.

You appear to have a really bizarro interpretation of "smear."

In your world "truth" is "smear."

Do I need post the plethora of articles by right-wing pundits calling those against the macinations of this needless war "unamerican?"

Does "freedom fries" ring a bell?

Are you ignorant of the words of Rove, Limbaugh, Coulter, Hannity, and a host of right-wing pundits who have not only called the antiwar movement unpatriotic .. but who have also never served in the military?

Your false argument is childishly silly and you run from serious conversation.

No surprise.

 

[evince]

I think there are many Americans of all colors who are willing to face the facts of our countrys inperfect history.

I hope you are wrong about it being most whites but there just is not telling for sure.

I have been very encouraged by how Americans of all color have responded to the boughhaha over the words of the Rev Wright. I still cant see what is so wrong with anything he said once I viewed it in context of his sermons.

It has been a net plus for Obama in the end.

 

[blackascoal]

I think there are many Americans of all colors who are willing to face the facts of our countrys inperfect history.

I hope you are wrong about it being most whites but there just is not telling for sure.

I have been very encouraged by how Americans of all color have responded to the boughhaha over the words of the Rev Wright. I still cant see what is so wrong with anything he said once I viewed it in context of his sermons.

It has been a net plus for Obama in the end.

I agree with you and I think this is a further demonstration of the evolution of Americans. I think it can no longer be said that America is a racist nation, but rather a nation that has some racists in it.

Morning in America.

 

[evince]

When I first heard Mr Obama I really liked him but thought this country just will not elect a black man yet. I have been very encouraged over the months watching him gain and gain in the polls.

I think you may be right. I think we may just be a country with with racists in it. The youth always have a way of improving the world when given the chance to enguage the system.

I really think he will be a ground breaking president in many ways.

 

[Damocles]

Patriotism is unique to the individual. The idea that it would be the same to even all blacks, or all whites is preposterous to me.

 

[cawacko]

I agree with you and I think this is a further demonstration of the evolution of Americans. I think it can no longer be said that America is a racist nation, but rather a nation that has some racists in it.

Morning in America.

I like your second sentence there and I agree with it. I work in corporate America. I wear my suit to work everyday blah blah blah. In my 12 years working I haven't seen racist actions by anyone I've work with or done business with. I'm not saying it doesn't exist because it does. But I've never seen anyone say 'I'm not going to accept this persons money or do business with them because of there race or color." That would be true ignorance.

In fact in my company they literally go out of there way trying to recruit and be mentors to minorities. The company's goal is to bring more minorities in not keep them out.

 

[Obfuscate]

Stupidity seems to.

 

[Good Luck]

While it is important to study history so we can avoid the mistakes that were made, we must also avoid the tendency to live in the past - especially when living in the past means holding onto resentment for past wrongs. We need only look at the Middle East to see where holding onto past wrongs will take a society.

I will not try to paint a picture that denies the lingering bastions of racism in our society. But at the same time, I will not deny the significant progress that has been made in recent decades. Are things perfect? No, they are not. But I also do not believe that minorities have any claim to having a "more critical view" of our current society. There are many whites who are quite critical of our society. There are also many belonging to various minorities who are quite satisfied with current society.

The difference in how people view patriotism has far more to do with how they perceive the current state of our society (good or bad), the direction it is going (good or bad), and what moves are needed to address our problems. This perception is not in any way limited to nor, IMO, significantly influenced by race.

 

[uscitizen]

Patriotism is unique to the individual. The idea that it would be the same to even all blacks, or all whites is preposterous to me.

well said. One big aspect of patriotism to me is to question our govt to ensure it is doing what is for the good of the country as a whole. Not just the poor, rich, black, white, green, etc. But as a whole.

On rascism, we have gotten much better in the last 40 yrs or so. but still have a long way to go and rascism will always exist in the minds of some of all colors, races.

I pretty much view religious and cultural intolerance the same as I do rascism.

Of course those fairly recently freed from most racial injustices and inequalities will have a different view than those of their former opressors. This is natural and as I said above should decrease if we keep working on it.

our differences can make us stong as a nation or they can drag us down, the choice is ours. An individual choice with collective results.

 

[blackascoal]

I like your second sentence there and I agree with it. I work in corporate America. I wear my suit to work everyday blah blah blah. In my 12 years working I haven't seen racist actions by anyone I've work with or done business with. I'm not saying it doesn't exist because it does. But I've never seen anyone say 'I'm not going to accept this persons money or do business with them because of there race or color." That would be true ignorance.

In fact in my company they literally go out of there way trying to recruit and be mentors to minorities. The company's goal is to bring more minorities in not keep them out.

I don't doubt anything you've said, which I see as further evidence of the evolution of Americans.

It's an evolution that not only clearly demonstrates that we are all in the same boat .. but also that we are stronger as a nation when we stand together.

It's an evolution that requires us all to re-examine what we've come to believe about each other.

 

[BRUTALITOPS]

how can you love a country that from your perspective has screwed you over so many times? If I were black I probably wouldn't like america at all.

 

[blackascoal]

While it is important to study history so we can avoid the mistakes that were made, we must also avoid the tendency to live in the past - especially when living in the past means holding onto resentment for past wrongs. We need only look at the Middle East to see where holding onto past wrongs will take a society.

I will not try to paint a picture that denies the lingering bastions of racism in our society. But at the same time, I will not deny the significant progress that has been made in recent decades. Are things perfect? No, they are not. But I also do not believe that minorities have any claim to having a "more critical view" of our current society. There are many whites who are quite critical of our society. There are also many belonging to various minorities who are quite satisfied with current society.

The difference in how people view patriotism has far more to do with how they perceive the current state of our society (good or bad), the direction it is going (good or bad), and what moves are needed to address our problems. This perception is not in any way limited to nor, IMO, significantly influenced by race.

I disagree.

History not only chronicles the events of the past, but shapes the course of the future. What is "current" did not start yesterday, a year ago, nor 10 years ago.

The so-called "war on drugs" is racist in its intent and outcomes and the disparities of the criminal justice system are proven, documented, and apparent. That injustice has always been apparent to blacks who have been the victims of this system, but less apparent to whites who did not have the critical eye borne of hundreds of years of like discrimination.

Today, America has become the biggest prison nation the world has ever known and the injustice of the American prison/crime syndicate is glaringly apparent to all fair-minded people.

"Patriotism" is based on how one views not only the current state of America, but also its history. If America was to be judged on its current state of affairs it would be seen as an evil nation of mass-murderers who attack small nations for profit.

Whether you believe blacks have a right to a more critical view of America or not, doesn't change the fact that we do, nor that we should.

The good news is that we are an evolving nation .. almost forced into this evolution by the horrors of George Bush and the right-wing. Now, many Americans of all races have come to the same critical view of our society and politics that blacks have.

Introspective and a crtitical view of our society .. that is what makes us better and that is the good news.

 

[blackascoal]

Patriotism is unique to the individual. The idea that it would be the same to even all blacks, or all whites is preposterous to me.

The fact that you think group identity with issues and beliefs based on history and experience is "preposterous" sounds pretty preposterous to me.

I'm betting that most Jewish people share a belief in far more than just religion. Does that seem "preposterous" to you?

I'd guess that about 90% of African-Americans are on the left side of the political divide. Does that seem preposterous to you?

 

[Damocles]

The fact that you think group identity with issues and beliefs based on history and experience is "preposterous" sounds pretty preposterous to me.

I'm betting that most Jewish people share a belief in far more than just religion. Does that seem "preposterous" to you?

I'd guess that about 90% of African-Americans are on the left side of the political divide. Does that seem preposterous to you?

What seems preposterous is the idea that all would share some identical version of something that is not an absolute.

I even believe it is preposterous to suggest that all Christians view God in the same manner as each other, that the view and belief is unique to each individual.

Let alone something as undefined as an absolute as "patriotism".