Sigmund Freud vs. Carl Jung

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Their respective theories of religion...

Sigmund Freud's theory of religion was based on a model of psychiatric pathology: religion as neurosis. He attacked religion on several fronts. He noted that religious rituals mirrored the ritual behavior of disturbed patients. Like a neurosis, religion thus represented a sort of safety valve that was perhaps useful for relieving pressure but not as good as getting to and resolving the real problems of life Religion, by displacing real human needs and fears
onto unreal, symbolic entities, was a form of alienation that prevented people from coming to grips with their real problems and frustrations. People were better off without it, just as his patients were better off without their neuroses.

Carl Gustav Jung began his career in psychiatry as one of Freud’s most promising disciples. As Jung began to reflect more independently on human psychology and its pathologies, however, he found himself increasingly convinced that religion, far from being the chronic impediment that Freud believed it to be, was also potentially a source of health, balance, and connection for people; in fact, it was a necessary component of mental health. Religion, he said, was the sense that we were connected to a reality larger than our individual selves. We might call this larger reality by many names, but it represented a kind of synchronicity, a larger web of significations, a collective unconscious that was inbuilt into the human psyche. Its contents included archetypes, universal symbolic representations that helped people to organize and give meaning to their existence. In tandem with rational, discursive thought, symbols and archetypes enabled people to approach the world in a balanced, meaningful way.



Source credit:Professor Charles B. Jones
 
What do you believe? Religion is used to start wars of genocide, and discriminate against women and nonwhites. Religion is destroying this country with its need for power and control.

Freud tried to preserve his legacy by walking back his attacks on religion in his deathbed book Moses and Monotheism. Freudians saw this as a betrayal on his principles.
 
What do you believe?
There seem to be elements of truth and insight in both Freud's and Jung's theories of religion. To me, the important thing is they are asking the right questions. They are looking at religion from the perspectives of sociology and psychology
.
Religion is used to start wars of genocide, and discriminate against women and nonwhites. Religion is destroying this country with its need for power and control.
Bad things happen when extremists take power. The crimes of religious authority are frequently discussed. Less frequently discussed are the crimes against humanity committed when state sponsored militant atheism is given the levers of government - from the French Revolution, to Soviet Russia and beyond.

That is undoutedly why the enlightened mind prefers a pluralistic, agnostic form of state secularism.

Freud tried to preserve his legacy by walking back his attacks on religion in his deathbed book Moses and Monotheism. Freudians saw this as a betrayal on his principles.

I will not begrudge him that. Plenty of people have taken religious principles to heart when faced with the termination of life.
 
There seem to be elements of truth and insight in both Freud's and Jung's theories of religion. To me, the important thing is they are asking the right questions. They are looking at religion from the perspectives of sociology and psychology
.

Bad things happen when extremists take power. The crimes of religious authority are frequently discussed. Less frequently discussed are the crimes against humanity committed when state sponsored militant atheism is given the levers of government - from the French Revolution, to Soviet Russia and beyond.

That is undoutedly why the enlightened mind prefers a pluralistic, agnostic form of state secularism.



I will not begrudge him that. Plenty of people have taken religious principles to heart when faced with the termination of life.
I was fascinated by Jung’s archetypes. Joseph Campbell discussed them in his series with Bill Moyer. Great stuff. I would say there is no need for religion when you can feel a connection with the universe and the awe of natural occurrences.
 
I was fascinated by Jung’s archetypes. Joseph Campbell discussed them in his series with Bill Moyer. Great stuff. I would say there is no need for religion when you can feel a connection with the universe and the awe of natural occurrences.
The world needs more Bill Moyers
Thanks for your insight!
 
There seem to be elements of truth and insight in both Freud's and Jung's theories of religion. To me, the important thing is they are asking the right questions. They are looking at religion from the perspectives of sociology and psychology
.

Bad things happen when extremists take power. The crimes of religious authority are frequently discussed. Less frequently discussed are the crimes against humanity committed when state sponsored militant atheism is given the levers of government - from the French Revolution, to Soviet Russia and beyond.

That is undoutedly why the enlightened mind prefers a pluralistic, agnostic form of state secularism.



I will not begrudge him that. Plenty of people have taken religious principles to heart when faced with the termination of life.
Neocons are able to bomb Muslim countries into submission because of white suburban christian complicity. The electoral college handed Trump the presidency because white christian fear of the demographics. White christian moderates are more than willing to aid and abet extremists for an imagined security. White christians deny accountability for the police state they continue to support and defend.

Freud has a rare win over Jung on this topic.
 
Neocons are able to bomb Muslim countries into submission because of white suburban christian complicity. The electoral college handed Trump the presidency because white christian fear of the demographics. White christian moderates are more than willing to aid and abet extremists for an imagined security. White christians deny accountability for the police state they continue to support and defend.

Freud has a rare win over Jung on this topic.

It seems to me a very dubious use of the term to call these persons 'Christians'. I haven't been able to take these particular psychologists seriously since I was fourteen and had a peculiarly complicated dream, as part of which a Freudian, Jungian and Adlerian therapist argued about its interpretation. I woke up laughing and decided I had better devote my spare time to theology and Marx. I expect it was somehow MEANT. Sorry about that! :)
 
It seems to me a very dubious use of the term to call these persons 'Christians'. I haven't been able to take these particular psychologists seriously since I was fourteen and had a peculiarly complicated dream, as part of which a Freudian, Jungian and Adlerian therapist argued about its interpretation. I woke up laughing and decided I had better devote my spare time to theology and Marx. I expect it was somehow MEANT. Sorry about that! :)
Thanks for the correction. American "christian" suburbia is the easiest group for the puppetmasters to manipulate.
 
Neocons are able to bomb Muslim countries into submission because of white suburban christian complicity. The electoral college handed Trump the presidency because white christian fear of the demographics. White christian moderates are more than willing to aid and abet extremists for an imagined security. White christians deny accountability for the police state they continue to support and defend.

Freud has a rare win over Jung on this topic.

Neocons do not strike me as particularly Christian. In fact, many of the leading Neocons were Jewish.

USA bombs people for geopolitical reasons which have nothing to do with Jesus. In the Balkans, we bombed Christians to protect Muslims.

Trump won the EC becasuse of racial resentment. White conservatives might use the bible as figleaf to justify their racism, but it does not make their true motivations Christian. I am pretty sure Jesus of Nazareth never said anything which could be construed as white supremacy.
 
What do you believe? Religion is used to start wars of genocide, and discriminate against women and nonwhites. Religion is destroying this country with its need for power and control.

Freud tried to preserve his legacy by walking back his attacks on religion in his deathbed book Moses and Monotheism. Freudians saw this as a betrayal on his principles.

Religion, like a lot of other things, has a good side and a bad side. Yes, it has caused war and genocide and brutality and oppression. It has also caused humans to create some of their most beautiful works -- architecture, music, compassion, empathy, and aid to our fellow travelers. Its evil comes when it is used by amoral power-hungry leaders to twist the faithful to their will. We can see that today in this country, as the evangelicals switched their god figure from The God to an insane orange clown who promised to give them what they most want -- dominion over America.
 
I was fascinated by Jung’s archetypes. Joseph Campbell discussed them in his series with Bill Moyer. Great stuff. I would say there is no need for religion when you can feel a connection with the universe and the awe of natural occurrences.

That's it. The connection. Yet western religions promote the concept of man apart from creation, not part of it. It even says in the OT that god gave mankind dominion over all. That indicates a separation, not a connection. Ancient ppl from the New World indigenous ppl to pre-Roman European pagans to African tribes in general put humans into nature and part and parcel of it.
 
Neocons are able to bomb Muslim countries into submission because of white suburban christian complicity. The electoral college handed Trump the presidency because white christian fear of the demographics. White christian moderates are more than willing to aid and abet extremists for an imagined security. White christians deny accountability for the police state they continue to support and defend.

Freud has a rare win over Jung on this topic.

I agree with much of this. A Trump (or a Hitler) is the result of fear. The QOP since Reagan has skillfully played on the fear of white Xtian Americans that they are rapidly becoming a minority in this country, and schmoozed them into abandoning the principles of their religion in order to keep their control of power.
 
Religion, like a lot of other things, has a good side and a bad side. Yes, it has caused war and genocide and brutality and oppression. It has also caused humans to create some of their most beautiful works -- architecture, music, compassion, empathy, and aid to our fellow travelers. Its evil comes when it is used by amoral power-hungry leaders to twist the faithful to their will. We can see that today in this country, as the evangelicals switched their god figure from The God to an insane orange clown who promised to give them what they most want -- dominion over America.

Well said.
 
Religion, like a lot of other things, has a good side and a bad side. Yes, it has caused war and genocide and brutality and oppression. It has also caused humans to create some of their most beautiful works -- architecture, music, compassion, empathy, and aid to our fellow travelers. Its evil comes when it is used by amoral power-hungry leaders to twist the faithful to their will. We can see that today in this country, as the evangelicals switched their god figure from The God to an insane orange clown who promised to give them what they most want -- dominion over America.
Christianity became the dominate religion through violence. My argument has always been that white suburban christian complicity is directly responsible for the situation we find ourselves in today. The marginalized are powerless but no longer depend on white suburban approval. Very few suburbanites realize the change young people are attempting to bring to America and the world as a whole.
 
That's it. The connection. Yet western religions promote the concept of man apart from creation, not part of it. It even says in the OT that god gave mankind dominion over all. That indicates a separation, not a connection. Ancient ppl from the New World indigenous ppl to pre-Roman European pagans to African tribes in general put humans into nature and part and parcel of it.
Exactly, it’s why I’m more attracted to Eastern, pagan, Native American spirituality than Judeao/Christianity.
 
Christianity became the dominate religion through violence. My argument has always been that white suburban christian complicity is directly responsible for the situation we find ourselves in today. The marginalized are powerless but no longer depend on white suburban approval. Very few suburbanites realize the change young people are attempting to bring to America and the world as a whole.

I think they do realize on some level. They see that young ppl are less religious, far more tolerant, more accepting of diversity and young ppl see it as a positive thing rather than the end of white/straight/Xtian hegemony. Hence their fear and anger at how the world is changing around them.
 
Exactly, it’s why I’m more attracted to Eastern, pagan, Native American spirituality than Judeao/Christianity.

Same here. To know that I am part of creation satisfies my soul.

The separation from creation taught by western religions is at least partially responsible for the environmental destruction we have wrought on the planet. Then you have ppl who live in boxes in crowded cities, far from even the local weather. They don't care about a forest 100 miles away being cut down so there can be more boxes built. They don't care if the place where they work is poisoning their air. Inside the boxes, the air seems clear enough. The water comes out and seems clean enough.
 
Exactly, it’s why I’m more attracted to Eastern, pagan, Native American spirituality than Judeao/Christianity.

I like aspects of Daoism, animism, Buddhism.

I have generally found there are bits and pieces of all religious traditions I can find inspiration in.
 
I was fascinated by Jung’s archetypes. Joseph Campbell discussed them in his series with Bill Moyer. Great stuff. I would say there is no need for religion when you can feel a connection with the universe and the awe of natural occurrences.
Moses and Monotheism tries to explain the archaeology/anthropology of early 20th century Europe. We now know that civilization goes back at least 15,000 years, or about 10,000 years before the Minoans.
 
I think they do realize on some level. They see that young ppl are less religious, far more tolerant, more accepting of diversity and young ppl see it as a positive thing rather than the end of white/straight/Xtian hegemony. Hence their fear and anger at how the world is changing around them.
We get to witness if suburbia accepts change. My personal belief is they will side with the police state.
 
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