Sigmund Freud vs. Carl Jung

[Dutch Uncle]

Their respective theories of religion...

Sigmund Freud's theory of religion was based on a model of psychiatric pathology: religion as neurosis. He attacked religion on several fronts. He noted that religious rituals mirrored the ritual behavior of disturbed patients. Like a neurosis, religion thus represented a sort of safety valve that was perhaps useful for relieving pressure but not as good as getting to and resolving the real problems of life Religion, by displacing real human needs and fears
onto unreal, symbolic entities, was a form of alienation that prevented people from coming to grips with their real problems and frustrations. People were better off without it, just as his patients were better off without their neuroses.

Carl Gustav Jung began his career in psychiatry as one of Freud’s most promising disciples. As Jung began to reflect more independently on human psychology and its pathologies, however, he found himself increasingly convinced that religion, far from being the chronic impediment that Freud believed it to be, was also potentially a source of health, balance, and connection for people; in fact, it was a necessary component of mental health. Religion, he said, was the sense that we were connected to a reality larger than our individual selves. We might call this larger reality by many names, but it represented a kind of synchronicity, a larger web of significations, a collective unconscious that was inbuilt into the human psyche. Its contents included archetypes, universal symbolic representations that helped people to organize and give meaning to their existence. In tandem with rational, discursive thought, symbols and archetypes enabled people to approach the world in a balanced, meaningful way.



Source creditrofessor Charles B. Jones

I'm much more influenced by Jung than Freud. Freud was a trailblazer, whereas Jung was more of a "settler" where he built upon the field Freud founded.

Jung was more holistic in his views of mind and body.

http://www.differencebetween.net/science/psychology/differences-between-jung-and-freud/

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I like aspects of Daoism, animism, Buddhism.

I have generally found there are bits and pieces of all religious traditions I can find inspiration in.

The points where all major religions dovetail is, IMO, is where truth is found.

 

[evince]

Their respective theories of religion...

Sigmund Freud's theory of religion was based on a model of psychiatric pathology: religion as neurosis. He attacked religion on several fronts. He noted that religious rituals mirrored the ritual behavior of disturbed patients. Like a neurosis, religion thus represented a sort of safety valve that was perhaps useful for relieving pressure but not as good as getting to and resolving the real problems of life Religion, by displacing real human needs and fears
onto unreal, symbolic entities, was a form of alienation that prevented people from coming to grips with their real problems and frustrations. People were better off without it, just as his patients were better off without their neuroses.

Carl Gustav Jung began his career in psychiatry as one of Freud’s most promising disciples. As Jung began to reflect more independently on human psychology and its pathologies, however, he found himself increasingly convinced that religion, far from being the chronic impediment that Freud believed it to be, was also potentially a source of health, balance, and connection for people; in fact, it was a necessary component of mental health. Religion, he said, was the sense that we were connected to a reality larger than our individual selves. We might call this larger reality by many names, but it represented a kind of synchronicity, a larger web of significations, a collective unconscious that was inbuilt into the human psyche. Its contents included archetypes, universal symbolic representations that helped people to organize and give meaning to their existence. In tandem with rational, discursive thought, symbols and archetypes enabled people to approach the world in a balanced, meaningful way.



Source creditrofessor Charles B. Jones

I’m with Jung

 

[Cypress]

I'm much more influenced by Jung than Freud. Freud was a trailblazer, whereas Jung was more of a "settler" where he built upon the field Freud founded.

Jung was more holistic in his views of mind and body.

http://www.differencebetween.net/science/psychology/differences-between-jung-and-freud/

I did not know that much about Jung, but I am impressed with his balanced approach to the topic. Phantasmal sounds like she had really put some thought into Jung.

I like his system of approaching religion as a social construct, and not worrying about whether the gods and spirits are actually true. He treats religion as sociology rather than theology.

 

[Cypress]

The points where all major religions dovetail is, IMO, is where truth is found.

"Of course, one cannot declare that only my faith is correct and all other faiths are not. Of course God is endlessly multi-dimensional so every religion that exists on earth represents some face, some side of God." --- Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

 

[goat]

I'm much more influenced by Jung than Freud. Freud was a trailblazer, whereas Jung was more of a "settler" where he built upon the field Freud founded.

Jung was more holistic in his views of mind and body.

http://www.differencebetween.net/science/psychology/differences-between-jung-and-freud/

Freud was coked up and having sex with his patients. Jung can't compete with that.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I did not know that much about Jung, but I am impressed with his balanced approach to the topic. Phantasmal sounds like she had really put some thought into Jung.

I like his system of approaching religion as a social construct, and not worrying about whether the gods and spirits are actually true. He treats religion as sociology rather than theology.

Religion is a social construct. Look at what Jesus said and what Christian religions are practicing. You're a good example of a Christian seeking to follow the path of Christ whereas PmP is a lip-service Christian who uses religion as a tool for personal gratification.

Martial arts, regardless of form, are to teach self-defense. They're also good for building confidence and physical conditioning. As such, martial arts, it doesn't matter much which form one chooses, is a means to an end with a goal of self-defense.

Same goes with religion. The purpose is spiritual enlightenment. Sadly, like some use martial arts, adherents defend their form over the end goal be it self-defense or spiritual enlightenment.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

We get to witness if suburbia accepts change. My personal belief is they will side with the police state.

They have definitely trended to the dark side (the QOP) in recent years. They've always been about protecting and preserving the status quo.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

"Of course, one cannot declare that only my faith is correct and all other faiths are not. Of course God is endlessly multi-dimensional so every religion that exists on earth represents some face, some side of God." --- Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

Great quote. Thanks and agreed.

Those who say God is limited to one religion are limiting God.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

The points where all major religions dovetail is, IMO, is where truth is found.

"What is truth?" -- Pontius Pilate

 

[Cypress]

"What is truth?" -- Pontius Pilate

A great philosophical question! Socrates himself would have forced us to confront this question.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

"Of course, one cannot declare that only my faith is correct and all other faiths are not. Of course God is endlessly multi-dimensional so every religion that exists on earth represents some face, some side of God." --- Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

When my late husband was in the ICU on life support, one of the medical staff asked if we wanted to speak with someone in pastoral care. Being pretty shell-shocked at the time I said okay. They sent the hospital priest (it was a Catholic hospital). There is something wonderful about hospital priests; they are far more open-minded than their brethren in churches. I told him that we weren't Catholic or Christian; in fact we were pagan. He just smiled and said "We Christians like to believe that we have the only path to Heaven. There are many paths." When I told him that my late husband always told me that he'd save me a seat on the bus to Hell, he laughed and said he wished he could have met him.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Religion, like a lot of other things, has a good side and a bad side. Yes, it has caused war and genocide and brutality and oppression. It has also caused humans to create some of their most beautiful works -- architecture, music, compassion, empathy, and aid to our fellow travelers. Its evil comes when it is used by amoral power-hungry leaders to twist the faithful to their will. We can see that today in this country, as the evangelicals switched their god figure from The God to an insane orange clown who promised to give them what they most want -- dominion over America.

Point of order: Religions are tools. The Bible never did anything except sit on a table. It's People who do all the nasty shit in the world.

It was human leaders who ordered the Crusades, it was human leaders who came up with "Manifest Destiny", it's humans who burned books and murdered millions of their fellow human beings, not "religion".

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

Religion is a social construct. Look at what Jesus said and what Christian religions are practicing. You're a good example of a Christian seeking to follow the path of Christ whereas PmP is a lip-service Christian who uses religion as a tool for personal gratification.

Martial arts, regardless of form, are to teach self-defense. They're also good for building confidence and physical conditioning. As such, martial arts, it doesn't matter much which form one chooses, is a means to an end with a goal of self-defense.

Same goes with religion. The purpose is spiritual enlightenment. Sadly, like some use martial arts, adherents defend their form over the end goal be it self-defense or spiritual enlightenment.

That's a great analogy. Just like some want to use their martial arts skills to bully and threaten, some use their religious faith as a club to do the same.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

That's it. The connection. Yet western religions promote the concept of man apart from creation, not part of it. It even says in the OT that god gave mankind dominion over all. That indicates a separation, not a connection. Ancient ppl from the New World indigenous ppl to pre-Roman European pagans to African tribes in general put humans into nature and part and parcel of it.

Exactly, it’s why I’m more attracted to Eastern, pagan, Native American spirituality than Judeao/Christianity.

Going a layer deeper, the differences are a reflection of Western philosophy versus Eastern philosophy. It's not that Christianity took over the West, but that people in the West graviated more strongly to Christianity than belief in Roman/Greek Gods.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

That's a great analogy. Just like some want to use their martial arts skills to bully and threaten, some use their religious faith as a club to do the same.

Thanks and agreed.

My philosophy is to hold people accountable, not things. Religion is a thing....so are guns and baseball bats.

 

[Cypress]

When my late husband was in the ICU on life support, one of the medical staff asked if we wanted to speak with someone in pastoral care. Being pretty shell-shocked at the time I said okay. They sent the hospital priest (it was a Catholic hospital). There is something wonderful about hospital priests; they are far more open-minded than their brethren in churches. I told him that we weren't Catholic or Christian; in fact we were pagan. He just smiled and said "We Christians like to believe that we have the only path to Heaven. There are many paths." When I told him that my late husband always told me that he'd save me a seat on the bus to Hell, he laughed and said he wished he could have met him.

awesome

Thanks for sharing that story.


I do not associate with fire-and-brimstone pastors, and the priests and bishops I know have never been openly judgmental about someone's spritual views or lack thereof.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

Point of order: Religions are tools. The Bible never did anything except sit on a table. It's People who do all the nasty shit in the world.

It was human leaders who ordered the Crusades, it was human leaders who came up with "Manifest Destiny", it's humans who burned books and murdered millions of their fellow human beings, not "religion".

Now we're teetering on the edge of the very similar discussion that starts with "Guns don't kill people, people kill people."

The fact is that without guns far less ppl would be being killed. Without religion the same is true. We can also point out the downsides of not having guns or not having religion.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

awesome

Thanks for sharing that story.


I do not associate with fire-and-brimstone pastors, and the priests and bishops I know have never been openly judgmental about someone's spritual views or lack thereof.

It is always good to find someone who truly does exemplify Christ's teachings. They are more rare than you might imagine, given the number of Xtians on the planet.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

"What is truth?" -- Pontius Pilate

The entire chapter is an interesting conversation in context. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John 18&version=NIV

The abridged version:
31 Pilate said, “Take him yourselves and judge him by your own law.”

“But we have no right to execute anyone,” they objected. 32 This took place to fulfill what Jesus had said about the kind of death he was going to die.

33 Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, “Are you the king of the Jews?”

34 “Is that your own idea,” Jesus asked, “or did others talk to you about me?”

35 “Am I a Jew?” Pilate replied. “Your own people and chief priests handed you over to me. What is it you have done?”

36 Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

37 “You are a king, then!” said Pilate.

Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. In fact, the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.”

38 “What is truth?” retorted Pilate. With this he went out again to the Jews gathered there and said, “I find no basis for a charge against him.