Sigmund Freud vs. Carl Jung

[Cypress]

It is always good to find someone who truly does exemplify Christ's teachings. They are more rare than you might imagine, given the number of Xtians on the planet.

In my opinion, it is probably difficult and takes enormous commitment to be a good, pious, devout Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, or Sikh.

Whatever we think about Jesus, Siddhartha Guatama, or Muhammad, the expectations they laid out for consistently living an authentic, meaningful, and ethical life takes remarkable commitment, when you think about it.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Now we're teetering on the edge of the very similar discussion that starts with "Guns don't kill people, people kill people."

The fact is that without guns far less ppl would be being killed. Without religion the same is true. We can also point out the downsides of not having guns or not having religion.

Are you saying religion, books, guns and other inanimate objects kill people without human involvement?

Putting guns aside for the moment, if religions didn't exist, people would invent them. Why?

Regardless of Voltaire's thoughts on the subject, human beings do have a spiritual side in addition to their physical and psychological components.

The major problem, of course, is that the physical components are easily quantified, the psychological less so and the spiritual nearly impossible to do so.

Nonetheless, try as they might for five decades, the Totalitarian Socialists of the USSR and PRC** were unable to stamp out religion. Again, why? IMO, it's because spirituality is an essential component human beings. The only way to eliminate spirituality is to eliminate the human beings. That's been tried too.


**The PRC is still trying to do so, notably with the Falun Gong.

 

[Concart]

Gods are man-made constructs to explain to the superstitious those things that science does not yet understand, and to create an afterlife to address their fear of mortality. Religion is a logical result of belief in Gods and the need to placate the powerful by worshipping them. Both have done far more harm than good. The fact is that Gods have been the explanation for many phenomenon that science now easily explains. Thunder is not Thor's hammer. An eclipse is not a dragon swallowing the sun. Every time religion says that God is right there under that rock, we turn the rock over and find science. EVERY SINGLE TIME. No exceptions.

A world without religion would be a far better world. As science expands our knowledge, we have less and less need for religion and Gods. Can I get an amen?

 

[Dutch Uncle]

In my opinion, it is probably difficult and takes enormous commitment to be a good, pious, devout Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, or Sikh.

Whatever we think about Jesus, Siddhartha Guatama, or Muhammad, the expectations they laid out for consistently living an authentic, meaningful, and ethical life takes remarkable commitment, when you think about it.

Agreed. The problem in the United States is that unregulated capitalism ramps up consumerism and fosters greed. "Greed is Good"..which in the US often means "Greed is God". Obviously this is completely contrary to what Jesus preached and why many Christians consider "Prosperity Christianity" to be blasphemy.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

Going a layer deeper, the differences are a reflection of Western philosophy versus Eastern philosophy. It's not that Christianity took over the West, but that people in the West graviated more strongly to Christianity than belief in Roman/Greek Gods.

The early Xtian leaders were skilled at adopting local religious festivals and practices into their own worship, in order to attract more believers. It worked very well. We can still see the echoes of pagan ritual and liturgy and holidays in Christian practice today.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Gods are man-made constructs to explain to the superstitious those things that science does not yet understand, and to create an afterlife to address their fear of mortality. Religion is a logical result of belief in Gods and the need to placate the powerful by worshipping them. Both have done far more harm than good. The fact is that Gods have been the explanation for many phenomenon that science now easily explains. Thunder is not Thor's hammer. An eclipse is not a dragon swallowing the sun. Every time religion says that God is right there under that rock, we turn the rock over and find science. EVERY SINGLE TIME. No exceptions.

A world without religion would be a far better world. As science expands our knowledge, we have less and less need for religion and Gods. Can I get an amen?

If that was 100% true, then why did Stalin and Mao fail to stamp it out over 50 years? Why is spirituality found in all cultures, past and present, around the world?

To be clear, I see religions as social constructs, but spirituality, despite your claims, is innate to human beings.

Everything you mentioned are components of religion, but do not explain spirituality in mankind. Consider a monk meditating on a mountaintop. Is he living in fear? Why? Why not? Nuns helping others like Mother Teresa? Just a stupid bitch scared of dying or not?

 

[Concart]

Are you saying religion, books, guns and other inanimate objects kill people without human involvement?

Putting guns aside for the moment, if religions didn't exist, people would invent them. Why?

Regardless of Voltaire's thoughts on the subject, human beings do have a spiritual side in addition to their physical and psychological components.

The major problem, of course, is that the physical components are easily quantified, the psychological less so and the spiritual nearly impossible to do so.

Nonetheless, try as they might for five decades, the Totalitarian Socialists of the USSR and PRC** were unable to stamp out religion. Again, why? IMO, it's because spirituality is an essential component human beings. The only way to eliminate spirituality is to eliminate the human beings. That's been tried too.


**The PRC is still trying to do so, notably with the Falun Gong.

Spirituality is a good thing. Dogma is not. The major religions are highly dogmatic. That's why they are a blight. Religion almost always divides because of the unwavering dedication to dogma. Muslims vs. Jews. Protestants vs. Catholics. Shiite vs. Sunni. The Catholic church vs. everyone who doesn't toe the line. History is riddled with death and destruction in the name of religion. It is what it is. We'd be far better without. There are other ways for communities to come together. Spirituality is a personal thing.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

Are you saying religion, books, guns and other inanimate objects kill people without human involvement?

Putting guns aside for the moment, if religions didn't exist, people would invent them. Why?

Regardless of Voltaire's thoughts on the subject, human beings do have a spiritual side in addition to their physical and psychological components.

The major problem, of course, is that the physical components are easily quantified, the psychological less so and the spiritual nearly impossible to do so.

Nonetheless, try as they might for five decades, the Totalitarian Socialists of the USSR and PRC** were unable to stamp out religion. Again, why? IMO, it's because spirituality is an essential component human beings. The only way to eliminate spirituality is to eliminate the human beings. That's been tried too.


**The PRC is still trying to do so, notably with the Falun Gong.

I believe that we are wired for spirituality, or it wouldn't exist. Stomping it out is useless in the long run. The best we can do is to keep it separate from our secular governments and laws... because if you let one get a toehold, then either that one dominates all, or it turns into chaos as each other religion wants in, too.

 

[Phantasmal]

The early Xtian leaders were skilled at adopting local religious festivals and practices into their own worship, in order to attract more believers. It worked very well. We can still see the echoes of pagan ritual and liturgy and holidays in Christian practice today.

They also converted by the sword.

 

[Concart]

If that was 100% true, then why did Stalin and Mao fail to stamp it out over 50 years? Why is spirituality found in all cultures, past and present, around the world?

To be clear, I see religions as social constructs, but spirituality, despite your claims, is innate to human beings.

Everything you mentioned are components of religion, but do not explain spirituality in mankind. Consider a monk meditating on a mountaintop. Is he living in fear? Why? Why not? Nuns helping others like Mother Teresa? Just a stupid bitch scared of dying or not?

I made the distinction between spirituality and religion. Religion is not required to meditate or to help the poor. It adds zero value to either exercise. Spirituality is indeed part of what makes us human. Unfortunately, those in power have used it to package and sell a steaming pile of bullshit.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

Gods are man-made constructs to explain to the superstitious those things that science does not yet understand, and to create an afterlife to address their fear of mortality. Religion is a logical result of belief in Gods and the need to placate the powerful by worshipping them. Both have done far more harm than good. The fact is that Gods have been the explanation for many phenomenon that science now easily explains. Thunder is not Thor's hammer. An eclipse is not a dragon swallowing the sun. Every time religion says that God is right there under that rock, we turn the rock over and find science. EVERY SINGLE TIME. No exceptions.

A world without religion would be a far better world. As science expands our knowledge, we have less and less need for religion and Gods. Can I get an amen?

I agree to a small extent. There is religion/gods, and then there is spirituality which I define as a non-observable/non-measurable sense of connection of self to all that there is. I don't claim to know if there is a god or gods, nor do I know if there is some sort of existence after our meat-space forms die. I suspect that our innate belief in gods has to do with our subconscious memories of being an infant. Our parents ARE like gods when we are tiny and helpless. Then we grow up and realize that they're just people after all, and the subconscious disappointment sends us in search of a replacement.

This is all very Jungian and Freudian, eh?

 

[Cypress]

Agreed. The problem in the United States is that unregulated capitalism ramps up consumerism and fosters greed. "Greed is Good"..which in the US often means "Greed is God". Obviously this is completely contrary to what Jesus preached and why many Christians consider "Prosperity Christianity" to be blasphemy.

The ostentatious lifestyle of Joel Olsteen and the other televangelist prosperity gospel preachers is obviously not what Jesus had in mind.

Most of these megachurch pastors do not even have a formal theological education from a reputable seminary or divinity school, so they are just doing bad theology on top of being greedy con men.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

The early Xtian leaders were skilled at adopting local religious festivals and practices into their own worship, in order to attract more believers. It worked very well. We can still see the echoes of pagan ritual and liturgy and holidays in Christian practice today.

Hanlon's Razor applies a bit here. Also Social Evolution.

Let's not forget this happened over a period of 2000 years. Consider how America has changed in just the last 50 years then multiply that 40 times to grasp the evolution of western ideology.

 

[Concart]

I agree to a small extent. There is religion/gods, and then there is spirituality which I define as a non-observable/non-measurable sense of connection of self to all that there is. I don't claim to know if there is a god or gods, nor do I know if there is some sort of existence after our meat-space forms die. I suspect that our innate belief in gods has to do with our subconscious memories of being an infant. Our parents ARE like gods when we are tiny and helpless. Then we grow up and realize that they're just people after all, and the subconscious disappointment sends us in search of a replacement.

This is all very Jungian and Freudian, eh?

Religion believes in the carrot and the stick. Spirituality believes in man's basic decency and in its connection to others. Religion does not teach, it dictates. Spirituality teaches us, instructs us and advances us. Totalitarian governments want to stamp out the spirit. They also want to replace the dogma with THEIR dogma. So it's perfectly logical that authoritarianism is the enemy of both. There is some truth to the idea that we viewed parents as 'Gods', because as infants we need to be told what to do. An infant doesn't know that playing in the street is dangerous. I'd still argue that Gods are a product of superstition and fear, and nothing else.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

The ostentatious lifestyle of Joel Olsteen and the other televangelist prosperity gospel preachers is obviously not what Jesus had in mind.

Most of these megachurch pastors do not even have a formal theological education from a reputable seminary or divinity school, so they are just doing bad theology on top of being greedy con men.

Agreed. They are examples of men using religion as a tool for personal gain.

Again, religion isn't bad, evil or even good. It's a tool. It's how the tool-wielder uses a tool that determines if it's a good or bad.

 

[Cypress]

Gods are man-made constructs to explain to the superstitious those things that science does not yet understand, and to create an afterlife to address their fear of mortality. Religion is a logical result of belief in Gods and the need to placate the powerful by worshipping them. Both have done far more harm than good. The fact is that Gods have been the explanation for many phenomenon that science now easily explains. Thunder is not Thor's hammer. An eclipse is not a dragon swallowing the sun. Every time religion says that God is right there under that rock, we turn the rock over and find science. EVERY SINGLE TIME. No exceptions.

A world without religion would be a far better world. As science expands our knowledge, we have less and less need for religion and Gods. Can I get an amen?

In principle, some of your criticisms have validity, but I feel your take is too one dimensional.

Many world religions do not posit an afterlife, for one thing.

As for science, the third most important person in Christianity after Jesus and Paul - Saint Augustine - wrote that interpretation of scipture is provisional and always needs to be revised and updated based upon the current state of knowlege of the natural world.

For the most part, perceived conflict between science and religion is an artifact of the 19th century and 20th centuries. On balance, Christianity was Europe's most important patron of science and natural philosophy - many of the greatest scientists in history were Catholic monks and priests.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I believe that we are wired for spirituality, or it wouldn't exist. Stomping it out is useless in the long run. The best we can do is to keep it separate from our secular governments and laws... because if you let one get a toehold, then either that one dominates all, or it turns into chaos as each other religion wants in, too.

Wired indicates you believe it's genetic. While I believe there are components of genetics that make some people more likely to be religious or not, I think there is more to it than human physiology.

Example; When theoretical physicists start talking about reality being a hologram or that the Universe is part of a larger, as-yet-unseen group of multiverses, I think we shouldn't be so quick to pigeonhole "spirituality" as being a quirk of humanity.

 

[evince]

I believe that we are wired for spirituality, or it wouldn't exist. Stomping it out is useless in the long run. The best we can do is to keep it separate from our secular governments and laws... because if you let one get a toehold, then either that one dominates all, or it turns into chaos as each other religion wants in, too.

Beliefs are personal


Trying to organize them with large numbers of people and UNELECTED leaders (churches) is asking for them to be taken over by evil humans

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I made the distinction between spirituality and religion. Religion is not required to meditate or to help the poor. It adds zero value to either exercise. Spirituality is indeed part of what makes us human. Unfortunately, those in power have used it to package and sell a steaming pile of bullshit.

Religion, like martial arts, is a path to spirituality, not an end goal. The problem is that there are those who see a specific religion as an end goal and utilize it as such. In that way, it's like politics....which also can't be eliminated due to the nature of human beings.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Beliefs are personal

Trying to organize them with large numbers of people and UNELECTED leaders (churches) is asking for them to be taken over by evil humans

Church leaders are elected. Members vote with their feet, not always the ballot box.