Socialism is No Longer a Dirty Word

blackascoal

The Force is With Me
John McCain's desperate attempts to smear Obama as a socialist during the last weeks of the campaign because of his defense of progressive income taxes are well behind us. Now that Obama's economic team has been named, primarily from the center-right, the question is more likely to be whether he is still a left-wing Democrat. But the attacks were a sign of how far right the Republicans had gone in questioning a policy long accepted by most Americans. We have forgotten that under that notorious left-winger Dwight D. Eisenhower, the tax on the highest bracket was 90 percent. In recent years tax cuts have been used, very effectively, to redistribute income upward. But "socialist" seemed to work as an epithet, replacing "communist," no longer useful now that Russia and China have become capitalist, and "liberal," now overused.

While Socialist parties still play an important role in Western Europe and, increasingly, in Latin America, they have long disappeared from the American scene. Since the death of Michael Harrington, there has been no acknowledged spokesman. Though Bernie Sanders was elected as a socialist, he has not chosen to forward any socialist alternatives. There is no one around to explain what socialist approaches to the present economic crisis might be, what a platform different from Obama's very careful centrist arguments would be like.

In 1942 a quarter of the population thought that socialism, of the kind that would be elected in nearly all of Western Europe, would be a "good thing." Socialist ideas were so popular that Harry Truman, old-style Democratic machine politician that he was, ran on a platform well to the left of Obama's--or of any of his Democratic successors. He faced important competitors to his left, not only the Socialist Party's Norman Thomas but also the more popular Progressive Party candidate, Henry Wallace. Truman thus argued for a socialized national health insurance plan, for more TVAs as well as more public housing, hospitals and the like. Full employment, not tax cuts, was then the American priority.

To be sure, socialists, like the Democrats, have long argued for greater equality, economic as well as social. One can still see the effects of their policies in the Scandinavian countries and in France, where, despite having elected the conservative Nicolas Sarkozy, the top fifth of the population earns around four times what the bottom fifth does (as opposed to the United States, where the top 1 percent notoriously gets 20 percent of the national income). The French, along with the pre-Blair British and others, use their tax dollars in part to guarantee every citizen full medical care as well as an effective and free educational system through the university level. These extensive social payments, which all Socialist parties have implemented throughout Western Europe, give their citizens a far higher overall standard of living than we can hope to have.

But socialists have traditionally argued for more than the welfare state. In order to guarantee equitable distribution, they have urged public ownership of crucial parts of the economy. Natural resources have been a major argument here, with oil and gas being obvious candidates for public ownership, since no individual capitalist has been responsible for their creation. Ironically, this is the case in Alaska, where those resources are publicly owned, as Governor Sarah Palin has boasted, allowing her to send substantial annual checks to each of her constituents. The checks would be larger if the oil companies were also publicly owned, as they are in many countries.

Public ownership is not an all-inclusive dogma but one that has been applied pragmatically. In postwar Britain, the coal mines, the steel mills and the railways were nationalized, in part to provide the necessary funding to keep them running (as, in effect, happened here with Amtrak). When Margaret Thatcher's government began to privatize some of these industries, the results were shocking even to conservatives. Rail prices skyrocketed and accidents became so common that the British have begun to rue their decisions. When water was privatized, prices rose to incredible heights while the heads of the new companies paid themselves millions, showing how easily the private sector can redistribute wealth from the many to the lucky few.

France nationalized its banks after the war and again under the Socialist François Mitterrand, to allow it to direct loans into socially useful areas. We have seen, in recent weeks, the international success of Gordon Brown's approach to a true nationalization of British banks. Remembering his socialist background, Brown opted for true control, rather than giving the bigger banks vast amounts with which to buy their competitors and continue to pay dividends, as has happened with Henry Paulson's "socialization" of the banks. Reversing those decisions should be on Obama's agenda. Using Brown's approach, the $20 billion just paid to Citigroup would have sufficed to buy the whole company, at the price the stock had fallen to, instead of settling for a symbolic 7.8 percent share of the equity. It might have been interesting to see what could be done with a bank that was committed to lending rather than gambling.

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Socialists have long realized that if government is unable to control big business, businesses will control the government and its regulators, as has happened so flagrantly in recent years. In difficult times, it is all the more important, as we have seen in the banking crisis, that those controlling the financial industry not use the government simply to bail themselves out but to help the overall economy. Those arguing for unregulated private ownership, with ever increasing profits as their only goal, have come close to ruining the very economy they had so long controlled. The Friedmanite myth of the perfect market lies in ruins. It is clear that more and more people, here and abroad, are looking for new alternatives. As the global crisis continues, more of us, not just Obama, may want to begin to consider some of these socialist solutions. Everyone now remembers that Franklin Roosevelt initially ran on a very cautious, even conservative, platform. As he discovered, changing events may demand ideas that, until recently, seemed unthinkable.

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Socialism Is No Longer a Dirty Word

Since socilaism already exists for the rich in this country, and we're teetering on the brink of disaster while wondering what to do with the auto industry, perhaps it's time to think of nationalized industries .. again.

I recognize that I'm the only socialist here .. but the beauty of socialism is that you don't have to convince anyone .. society will come to it.
 
I support a larger welfare state, but not nationalizations. 99% of the time its bad policy, and when it does work (usually in a case where there would ordinarily be a natural monopoly) it usually only barely works better than a fairly regulated free market.

I mean, BAC, look at Venezula. Far left policies there have RAVAGED the economy, and now their economy is barely growing, and it's not doing the poor any good. The fact is, the free market works.

I support the free market so that we can use it to help the unfortunate amongst us.
 
I support a larger welfare state, but not nationalizations. 99% of the time its bad policy, and when it does work (usually in a case where there would ordinarily be a natural monopoly) it usually only barely works better than a fairly regulated free market.

I mean, BAC, look at Venezula. Far left policies there have RAVAGED the economy, and now their economy is barely growing, and it's not doing the poor any good. The fact is, the free market works.

I support the free market so that we can use it to help the unfortunate amongst us.

How can you speak of Venezuela's ravaged economy without looking at our own. Regardless of how "ravaged" Venezuela's economy may be now, the people of Venezuela have a far better standard of living than pre-Chavez .. which is also true of the people of Cuba pre-Castro.

Additionally, the people in the "socialist" nations of Europe and Japan live longer and healthier than we do. The workers in Europe get six weeks paid vacation a year. They have a far lower infant mortality rate than we do. And their standard of living is as good, if not better, than ours.

I believe in mixed economies and mixed social ideologies, which is why I'm a democratic socialist.

Democratic Socialists believe that both the economy and society should be run democratically—to meet public needs, not to make profits for a few. To achieve a more just society, many structures of our government and economy must be radically transformed through greater economic and social democracy so that ordinary Americans can participate in the many decisions that affect our lives.
 
Additionally, the people in the "socialist" nations of Europe and Japan live longer and healthier than we do. The workers in Europe get six weeks paid vacation a year. They have a far lower infant mortality rate than we do. And their standard of living is as good, if not better, than ours.

I believe in mixed economies and mixed social ideologies, which is why I'm a democratic socialist.

Japan hasn't had a socialist majority government since the 40's.

Again, I do like the systems in Europe. But I don't really consider them socialist. They aren't nationalizing things like crazy. They are using the profits of the free market to fix societal ills. For instance, they've all but eliminated child poverty in Sweden, and I think that's something America should definitely target.
 
Japan hasn't had a socialist majority government since the 40's.

Again, I do like the systems in Europe. But I don't really consider them socialist. They aren't nationalizing things like crazy. They are using the profits of the free market to fix societal ills. For instance, they've all but eliminated child poverty in Sweden, and I think that's something America should definitely target.

None of them have purely socialist systems, and I'm not suggesting America should adapt a purely socialist system either .. but the American model WILL evolve .. and we WILL adapt MORE socialist concepts.

As I said when I created this thread, the beauty of the socialism argument is that I don't have to argue it. This society WILL adapt MORE socialist concepts. It doesn't matter if one agrees with it, or if it fits ones concept of the Constitution or not .. BECAUSE of the inevitable failure of capitialism.

It doesn't matter if one agrees with nationalized healthcare or not .. nationalized healthare WILL be adapted in America .. BECAUSE of the failure of our current system.

If US automakers go under, 3 million people will be out of work almost overnight and this country sinks into depression. There are few things that accelerate the NEED for socialism than depression.

The argument is for the American model .. and it's an argument that doesn't need arguing.
 
Any time you guys need examples and statistics to back up the arguments that BAC makes, just let us know on this side of the Atlantic. We've at least 50 years of doing socialism/social democracy in Western Europe.
 
Any time you guys need examples and statistics to back up the arguments that BAC makes, just let us know on this side of the Atlantic. We've at least 50 years of doing socialism/social democracy in Western Europe.

And I'd liken to emulate that.

I'm just disagreeing with BAC's stance on nationalizations, which I generally oppose. Nationalizing an industry you have an absolute advantage over, like oil or natural resources, could be in your national best interest, and possibly industries in which there are natural monopolies. And that's about the extent of it that I would accept. It still wouldn't do much, even if it did do the job better.
 
Liberal should never be a "dirty word" or epithet. Socialist should be, if for no other reason, because it leads to an expansion of governmental power and erosion of liberty.
 
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Liberal should never be a "dirty word" or epithet. Socialist should be, if for no other reason, because it leads to an expansion of governmental power and erosion of liberty.

But ironhead, all they want to do is solve the problems inherent in our system. They may go about it the wrong way, but it's not like they're evil.
 
But ironhead, all they want to do is solve the problems inherent in our system. They may go about it the wrong way, but it's not like they're evil.

Well, no, I don't equate "socialist" with "National Socialist." However, anything that is an affront to the rights of the individual should be criticized, IMO.

I would go further and say that I use the word "nationalist" with even greater disdain than "socialist". However, if you think about it, socialism is arguably a form of nationalism, just turned inwards instead of outwards.
 
Well, no, I don't equate "socialist" with "National Socialist." However, anything that is an affront to the rights of the individual should be criticized, IMO.

I would go further and say that I use the word "nationalist" with even greater disdain than "socialist". However, if you think about it, socialism is arguably a form of nationalism, just turned inwards instead of outwards.

Inward? What do you mean?

I think that any philosophy that's explicitly based on collectivism is either pure evil or simply short-sited. But if I wanted to name the atrocities of the USSR, redistributing wealth wouldn't even make the list.
 
I'm sure Venezula went through a phase in which their quality of life was improved. That's the cycle of full socialism. At first they make great strides, but they can never keep up after that, and after decades of stagnation they are thrown into the heap of third world nations.

I'd like you to remember that in the 1950's and 60's production in North Korea was incredible and they were growing much faster than the South. Now they are one of the poorest countries in the world.

Venezula, too, is stagnating, and slowly falling behind now, even though they never went as far as NK. They aren't awfully poor right now, but give them a couple of decades to continue on this pattern.
 
Inward? What do you mean?

I think that any philosophy that's explicitly based on collectivism is either pure evil or simply short-sited. But if I wanted to name the atrocities of the USSR, redistributing wealth wouldn't even make the list.

What?!! What about the forced collectivization of farms, during the '30's?? That's wealth distribution.

By inward, I meant that socialism is the realization of national consciousness focused inward (toward national, domestic goals) as opposed to nationalism in foreign policy (outward).
 
What?!! What about the forced collectivization of farms, during the '30's?? That's wealth distribution.

By inward, I meant that socialism is the realization of national consciousness focused inward (toward national, domestic goals) as opposed to nationalism in foreign policy (outward).

I don't think that collectivization of farms is necessarily an atrocity. I think that killing millions of people to accomplish it is.

Of course, the food shortages that will invariably happen kills people. That's more tragic foolishness than evil.
 
I don't think that collectivization of farms is necessarily an atrocity. I think that killing millions of people to accomplish it is.

Of course, the food shortages that will invariably happen kills people. That's more tragic foolishness than evil.

That's some pretty weak logic. The results were disastrous, millions died. I don't believe in evil in some sort of ethereal sense, but mass murder (either direct or indirect) is about as close as pure evil that human beings can exact.
 
That's some pretty weak logic. The results were disastrous, millions died. I don't believe in evil in some sort of ethereal sense, but mass murder (either direct or indirect) is about as close as pure evil that human beings can exact.

Millions died because Stalin deliberately withheld grain. When the grain was actually distributed no one starved to death.

Millions have starved to death indirectly because of capitalist systems. That was also foolishness.
 
Millions died because Stalin deliberately withheld grain. When the grain was actually distributed no one starved to death.

Millions have starved to death because of capitalist systems. That was also foolishness.

Millions were not starving based on the already existing agriculture. Moreover, Stalin rounded up thousands and murdered them based on the fact that they resisted the Soviet government.

Your point about capitalism is retarded. Capitalism is not one person, it's the totality of human actions in a given market or location. If the productive capacity was not producing enough food, and I'd like to see some data to back up your assertion, the correct thing to blame is the inadequate technology, not the free association of people. Or, if you want, blame the lack of charity on wealthy individuals; that's still not "capitalism."
 
Millions were not starving based on the already existing agriculture. Moreover, Stalin rounded up thousands and murdered them based on the fact that they resisted the Soviet government.

Your point about capitalism is retarded. Capitalism is not one person, it's the totality of human actions in a given market or location. If the productive capacity was not producing enough food, and I'd like to see some data to back up your assertion, the correct thing to blame is the inadequate technology, not the free association of people. Or, if you want, blame the lack of charity on wealthy individuals; that's still not "capitalism."

[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin[/ame]

According to Alan Bullock, "the total Soviet grain crop was no worse than that of 1931 … it was not a crop failure but the excessive demands of the state, ruthlessly enforced, that cost the lives of as many as five million Ukrainian peasants." Stalin refused to release large grain reserves that could have alleviated the famine, while continuing to export grain; he was convinced that the Ukrainian peasants had hidden grain away, and strictly enforced draconian new collective-farm theft laws in response.[26][27]



Stalin had the grain but refused to give it to them because he was paranoid and thought that they were hiding away, and he wanted to sell it for export. It was not bad economics that killed the people, as they had produced enough grain under collectivization to feed themselves, it was the deliberate efforts of one man to not give them the grain they needed that he was warehousing, as a form of punishment.
 
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