The bible

You went to a little Protestant bible school of no particular importance. And rather than giving you a real education in religious scholarship, they taught you conservative Protestant dogma .

Here is some education I will give you for free. It is only Protestants, and particularly conservative Protestant, who assert the absolute authority and absolute inerrancy of the bible, and maintain a belief in strict biblical literalism.

Protestants are only a minority of world Christianity.

lol......translation in short....."unless you've had a sound atheist/gnostic education you will never be smart enough to abandon your faith".....

by the way.....inerrancy is a belief that the Bible has and has never had any errors.......a silly concept that any one who has seen the human translation errors of the KJV should be ashamed to hold......but that isn't the fault of the Word......that is a fault of an untrained translator who had only one source for the OT, which was itself a Latin translation......

the other 95% of protestants (who, because they only total a billion of the 3B Christians are a minority)......believe in infallibility.....

The word “infallible” means “will not fail” or “trustworthy.” So to say Scripture is infallible signifies its full trustworthiness “as a guide that is not deceived and does not deceive.”2 Infallibility does not mean the Bible cannot contain errors—but rather that it cannot fail.

In Christian Thought: Orthodoxy and Heresy, Beth Felker Jones says the concept of infallibility means that the Word of God “will do what God intends for it to do” for his expressed purpose.3
https://www.logos.com/grow/inerrancy-of-scripture/?campaignid=18467614031&adgroupid=142254639065&keyword=&device=c&utm_source=google&utm_medium=advertising_cpc&utm_campaign=google_search-keyword_dsa_logos_us_en&gclid=CjwKCAiA7vWcBhBUEiwAXieItpeI2YHCVltp70v-KnpT103T4zNrY9glWjTXLwnaKoOnyNcaVrdE6hoCqfQQAvD_BwE

or are you searching for an "historical" Christian theology as well as an historical Jesus......
 
I would think the message is more important than who wrote it.

It's not my fault that the majority of reputable religious scholars believe the gospels were written by people now unknown to us, but later attributed to two apostles and two companions of apostles.

but it is your fault that the only religious scholars you pay attention to are those who have abandoned Christianity as dogmatic......but I have to concur you are correct.......the vast majority of religious scholars who have abandoned the truth of the scriptures agree that the scriptures are not true.......
 
When your insurance company gives you a list of dental professionals in your network, none of them are meat butchers.

So you place so much value and importance on expertise, you actively seek only the most highly skilled and trained dentists.

so when you make a list of authorities on Christian theology why does your list contain no Christians?......
 
I would think the message is more important than who wrote it.

you and yours must deny that the Bible is the Word of God......otherwise you cannot explain the things you remove from it........the Message is more important than what you have left of it.......
 
There is.

Is that why you refused to offer any when I asked earlier?

Circular argument fallacy (fundamentalism).

Incorrect. Not even close to what a circular argument is. Learn some philosophy and logic.

You are asking a void question. You need to be more specific.

Wrong.

That's called "making shit up". That is YOU doing this. You don't know the Bible.

LOL. I know it better than you do. Which is why I have quoted it many times in this forum but I don't recall you quoting it once.
 
lol......translation in short....."unless you've had a sound atheist/gnostic education you will never be smart enough to abandon your faith".....

by the way.....inerrancy is a belief that the Bible has and has never had any errors.......a silly concept that any one who has seen the human translation errors of the KJV should be ashamed to hold......but that isn't the fault of the Word......that is a fault of an untrained translator who had only one source for the OT, which was itself a Latin translation......

the other 95% of protestants (who, because they only total a billion of the 3B Christians are a minority)......believe in infallibility.....


https://www.logos.com/grow/inerrancy-of-scripture/?campaignid=18467614031&adgroupid=142254639065&keyword=&device=c&utm_source=google&utm_medium=advertising_cpc&utm_campaign=google_search-keyword_dsa_logos_us_en&gclid=CjwKCAiA7vWcBhBUEiwAXieItpeI2YHCVltp70v-KnpT103T4zNrY9glWjTXLwnaKoOnyNcaVrdE6hoCqfQQAvD_BwE

or are you searching for an "historical" Christian theology as well as an historical Jesus......

The strict conservative Protestant dogma you were indoctrinated with is not equivalent to a real education in religious scholarship.

I gave you the example of a Yale-trained theologian who also happens to be a practicing Catholic and former Benedictine monk, who openly states that the true authorship of the gospels is not certain and open to debate
 
you and yours must deny that the Bible is the Word of God.

I think you have a mistaken view of what happens when some people deconvert from Christianity. Let me tell you my story. It isn't as simple as "denying".

I spent most of my early life as a Christian. Not a fundamentalist, just a middle of the road United Methodist. Throughout most of that time I attempted to "feel" the way I understood people felt when they "knew" God. I wanted to feel like God was present in my life. Unfortunately I never really "felt" his presence. In my best times I felt good and maybe "happiness" is what some people call God. In my darkest hours it wasn't God that got me through but rather the fear that if I made a bad choice God might punish me for it. Now, of course, you can easily say God is nothing but Love. However I felt so little of that in any real way that I started to question: what am I worshipping? Am I worshiping something that I am in a relationship with?

The fact of the matter was that it was a one-way relationship. I prayed to God and tried to feel his love and presence. I didn't feel it. So I started looking closer at what the faith offered me. Unfortunately I also suffered from a form of scrupulosity which put a lot more of my mental focus on trying to do right by God. Some people like Martin Luther who suffered from scrupulosity found a way through and still maintained his faith. I was not so lucky.

I read the Bible. I looked as critically at the "evidences" for God's existence. I studied philosophy and theology but at the end of the day I simply realized that I no longer saw compelling evidence for God's reality.

Maybe God is there. As they say "God answers all prayers, sometimes the answer is 'no'." Well, I never felt like anyone was on the other end of the line when I was praying.

If you are an honest broker with regards to faith then you know that these "dark nights of the soul" are nothing unique. Mother Theresa writes extensively about the occasional sense of abandonment.

So it's not as simple as simply decreeing that an atheist wants to deny god.

the Message is more important than what you have left of it.......

See, that's the thing. As an atheist I realize there's a lot of trash in the Bible, but there's also a LOT of BEAUTY and GREAT LIFE ADVICE. There's a lot of value I get from my time as a Christian. In fact most of my friends are still Christians and I honor their beliefs.

I think in many ways the New Testament carries some great stuff that still holds up even if you strip away the magical undead part. Even if Christ never existed the concept of salvation through grace can still have value to an atheist! Grace is something we can grant to each other! If we all understand that we are all inherently flawed imperfect creatures prone to messing up and hurting each other, maybe we can be more forebearant towards our fellow people and grant them the 'grace' that we ourselves will be in need of some time.

So, you see, atheists aren't simply denying all the good stuff you value. In fact if you ask an atheist what they think about this and how they came to their atheism you might be surprised to learn that many atheists have a much deeper link to spiritual thought than you ever imagined.
 
The strict conservative Protestant dogma you were indoctrinated with is not equivalent to a real education in religious scholarship.

as I have stated before, I don't really give a shit what some "really educated" atheist or gnostic says about religious scholarship.....
 
I gave you the example of a Yale-trained theologian who also happens to be a practicing Catholic and former Benedictine monk, who openly states that the true authorship of the gospels is not certain and open to debate

you can debate it all you want......please keep in mind this whole debate started because you said no one attributed the gospels to their authors until two hundred years later.....we've already established beyond question that until the 1030s NO ONE questioned the authorship of the gospels.......now the debate has evolved to whether Christians need to pay any attention to the arguments of atheists regarding Christian doctrine.....
 
you and yours must deny that the Bible is the Word of God......otherwise you cannot explain the things you remove from it........the Message is more important than what you have left of it.......

I probably attend church more often than most of your Trump-loving buddies on this board.

To me, the New Testament touches on universal moral truths and a type of transcendent higher truth we will never find in particle accelerators and mass spectrometers.

I believe a genuine human life has to have ritual and tradition

The basic fact that I haven't been indoctrinated with fundamentalist Protestant dogma is what angers you.
 
I think you have a mistaken view of what happens when some people deconvert from Christianity. Let me tell you my story. It isn't as simple as "denying".

yes it is.....you made your choice......now stop preaching.....this thread isn't about converting anyone and no one cares why you made the choice you did.....

this thread is about false statements regarding Christian doctrine......
 
The basic fact that I haven't been indoctrinated with fundamentalist Protestant dogma is what angers you.

not at all.....I don't give a fuck what you believe......this whole debate exists because you made a false statement about the attribution of gospel authorship......I have corrected your stupidity.....the only thing that angers me is your refusal to admit your error.......
 
yes it is.....you made your choice......now stop preaching.....this thread isn't about converting anyone and no one cares why you made the choice you did.....

this thread is about false statements regarding Christian doctrine......

Well, I tried. I actually tried to engage with you as an adult with a personal story in hopes of helping you understand. I wanted to see if you were capable of responding in a likewise manner. I see you are not. I am saddened but not surprised.

Now I won't feel so bad being harsh to you. It is apparently what you want (Luke 6:31)

When I meet people like you I am quite happy with my choice to become an atheist. Because I see that being a Christian is no guarantee of someone even WANTING to be a decent person. I see the fruit you bear and I know the type of tree you are.
 
as I have stated before, I don't really give a shit what some "really educated" atheist or gnostic says about religious scholarship.....

I guess you never went to college.

You don't have to be Asian to become an expert on Asian history, you don't need to be Russian to become a trained scholar of Russian history, and you don't need to be Greek to be trained as a scholar in Greek philosopy.

Some religious scholars are practicing christians, but there is no requirement to be Christian to be a religious scholar anymore than there is a requirement to be master painter to be an art historian.

The only reason the names Mark Mathew Luke and John got attached to the gospels is because Saint Irenaeus made the claim they were the authors in the late Second century.

We could just take Irenaeus' claim sight unseen at face value.

Or we could use our own brains to ask questions and practice literary criticism. If John and Matthew really were first hand witnesses, why are their gospels so fundamentally different? How did peasants from the Aramaic-speaking backwater province of Galilee manage articulate and compose sophisticated literary and philosophical thoughts in highly educated classical Attic Greek?
 
I think you have a mistaken view of what happens when some people deconvert from Christianity. Let me tell you my story. It isn't as simple as "denying".

I spent most of my early life as a Christian. Not a fundamentalist, just a middle of the road United Methodist. Throughout most of that time I attempted to "feel" the way I understood people felt when they "knew" God. I wanted to feel like God was present in my life. Unfortunately I never really "felt" his presence. In my best times I felt good and maybe "happiness" is what some people call God. In my darkest hours it wasn't God that got me through but rather the fear that if I made a bad choice God might punish me for it. Now, of course, you can easily say God is nothing but Love. However I felt so little of that in any real way that I started to question: what am I worshipping? Am I worshiping something that I am in a relationship with?

The fact of the matter was that it was a one-way relationship. I prayed to God and tried to feel his love and presence. I didn't feel it. So I started looking closer at what the faith offered me. Unfortunately I also suffered from a form of scrupulosity which put a lot more of my mental focus on trying to do right by God. Some people like Martin Luther who suffered from scrupulosity found a way through and still maintained his faith. I was not so lucky.

I read the Bible. I looked as critically at the "evidences" for God's existence. I studied philosophy and theology but at the end of the day I simply realized that I no longer saw compelling evidence for God's reality.

Maybe God is there. As they say "God answers all prayers, sometimes the answer is 'no'." Well, I never felt like anyone was on the other end of the line when I was praying.

If you are an honest broker with regards to faith then you know that these "dark nights of the soul" are nothing unique. Mother Theresa writes extensively about the occasional sense of abandonment.

So it's not as simple as simply decreeing that an atheist wants to deny god.



See, that's the thing. As an atheist I realize there's a lot of trash in the Bible, but there's also a LOT of BEAUTY and GREAT LIFE ADVICE. There's a lot of value I get from my time as a Christian. In fact most of my friends are still Christians and I honor their beliefs.

I think in many ways the New Testament carries some great stuff that still holds up even if you strip away the magical undead part. Even if Christ never existed the concept of salvation through grace can still have value to an atheist! Grace is something we can grant to each other! If we all understand that we are all inherently flawed imperfect creatures prone to messing up and hurting each other, maybe we can be more forebearant towards our fellow people and grant them the 'grace' that we ourselves will be in need of some time.

So, you see, atheists aren't simply denying all the good stuff you value. In fact if you ask an atheist what they think about this and how they came to their atheism you might be surprised to learn that many atheists have a much deeper link to spiritual thought than you ever imagined.

Interesting post.

I also spent most of my life as a "Christian"...a Catholic. I also "suffered" from scrupulosity...to the point where I was going to confession every day. (There still was confession in Catholicism back in the day. My confessor finally demanded that I stop coming to confession every day.) As an adult in the Air Force, I learned to serve the Latin rite Mass...and served Mass for the Catholic chaplain each day. I actually served Mass at St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican...and served as an acolyte in a High Mass to the Catholic primate of England, a Cardinal whose name escapes me at the moment.

At some point I realized I was kidding myself. I recognized my "faith" as little more than indoctrination...occasioned by having been born a Catholic. After a great deal of thought, I decided to acknowledge my agnosticism. (The notion of using "atheist" as a descriptor never seemed more appropriate to me than using the label "Catholic" or "Christian" or "theist.")

I think we can agree that there are people who "believe" there is at least one GOD. I am not one of those people. I do not "believe" there is at least one GOD.

I think we can also agree that there are people who "believe" there are no gods. I am not one of those people either. I do not "believe" there are no gods.
 
Interesting post.

I also spent most of my life as a "Christian"...a Catholic. I also "suffered" from scrupulosity...to the point where I was going to confession every day. (There still was confession in Catholicism back in the day. My confessor finally demanded that I stop coming to confession every day.) As an adult in the Air Force, I learned to serve the Latin rite Mass...and served Mass for the Catholic chaplain each day. I actually served Mass at St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican...and served as an acolyte in a High Mass to the Catholic primate of England, a Cardinal whose name escapes me at the moment.

At some point I realized I was kidding myself. I recognized my "faith" as little more than indoctrination...occasioned by having been born a Catholic. After a great deal of thought, I decided to acknowledge my agnosticism. (The notion of using "atheist" as a descriptor never seemed more appropriate to me than using the label "Catholic" or "Christian" or "theist.")

I think we can agree that there are people who "believe" there is at least one GOD. I am not one of those people. I do not "believe" there is at least one GOD.

I think we can also agree that there are people who "believe" there are no gods. I am not one of those people either. I do not "believe" there are no gods.

I tend to feel like I am somewhere ranging between Spinoza's God and agnosticism, but still like the ritual, aesthetic, and tradition of the Eastern Orthodox liturgy, and try to attend occasionally.

Considering the digital, ephemeral nature of the world today, I appreciate feeling part of something ancient, historic, and transcendent.
 
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