The Death of Jesus—Historical Certainties

[Cypress]

“Blame the God damned Jews for the death of Jesus!” – recently posted by a Trump-loving jpp.com conservative poster



Cliff notes: It is a historical fact that Jesus was killed by the Romans for political treason against Rome. The Roman governor Pontius Pilate would not have cared one whit if the Jewish authorities disagreed with Jesus on matters of Jewish tradition and religious practice. The bottom line: Jewish people are not accountable for the execution of Jesus, in spite of the claims of some Trump supporters.

The Death of Jesus—Historical Certainties

First, there is no doubt that Jesus was killed by the Romans, not the Jews, and that his execution was for political treason – for calling himself the king of the Jews.

Jesus was not the only Jew from antiquity who claimed to be the messiah; the Romans reacted violently against all such messianic claimants, routinely killing them for political insurgency.

But what is striking is that Jesus is never recorded as calling himself king of the Jews in any of his public proclamations. We are repeatedly told in the Gospels that Jesus taught his own disciples privately. And we have a good indication of one thing he taught them: a saying that appears in Matthew and Luke (meaning that it comes from the early source Q) that no later Christian would have made up; thus, this teaching is almost certainly historical.

Jesus told his disciples that they would be the rulers of the Twelve Tribes of Israel in the future kingdom.

But if the disciples were rulers, who would rule them? The answer was that Jesus was their leader now. He was the one who had called them. It was by following his teaching that they would enter the kingdom. It appears that Jesus taught the disciples that just as he ruled them now, so too would he rule them later when the Son of Man arrived, Jesus himself would be made king of the coming kingdom. And this would happen within their own lifetimes, when he was made messiah of the coming kingdom.

This is the secret that Judas betrayed. Judas told the authorities that Jesus was calling himself the future king of the Jews.

For this reason, when the authorities became fearful of a riot, they had Jesus taken into custody and handed him over to Pontius Pilate for trial.

Pilate would not have cared if Jesus disagreed with the Jewish authorities on matters of the Jewish religion or if he had ever committed religious blasphemy. Pilate was a Roman governor of a Roman province, and he cared only for threats to Rome.

The charge against Jesus was that he was claiming to usurp the power of Rome, claiming to be the future king when only the Romans could appoint the king.

Pilate evidently questioned Jesus about whether he called himself the king of the Jews, and Jesus either did not respond or answered truthfully, that he was to be the future king.

That is all Pilate had to know. He ordered Jesus to be crucified, Jesus was flogged and taken to the cross, and according to our earliest records, he was dead within six hours.



Source credit: Dr. Bart D. Ehrman, Ph.D., Professor of Religious History and New Testament Scholar
The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

 

[Bobb]

Cliff notes: It is a historical fact that Jesus was killed by the Romans for political treason against Rome. The Roman governor Pontius Pilate would not have cared one whit if the Jewish authorities disagreed with Jesus on matters of Jewish tradition and religious practice. The bottom line: Jewish people are not accountable for the execution of Jesus, in spite of the claims of some Trump supporters.

THE JEWS AND THEIR LIES.

Three books written in the first century that give the account of the crucifixion all tell of Pilate's extreme reluctance to carry out the Jew's execution of Jesus. But, Pilate eventually did it, out of the Jew's threats of riot and rebellion, and after they said they'd take the blame. Even Jewish tradition, as recorded in the Talmud, proudly credits the Jews with killing Jesus for blasphemy. The king of the Jews, Herod, found no guilt in Jesus. "When Herod saw Jesus, he was very glad, for he had long desired to see him, because he had heard about him... The chief priests and the scribes stood by, vehemently accusing him... Pilate then called together the chief priests and the rulers and the people, and said to them, 'You brought me this man as one who was misleading the people. And after examining him before you, behold, I did not find this man guilty of any of your charges against him. Neither did Herod.'" (From the Gospel of Luke)

Cypress, why do you want to be such an embarrassing and pathetic liar? Come on asswipe, what historical source supports your claim that Rome wanted Jesus dead for treason? Come on, faggot, put up or shut up.

 

[Mason Melchizedek]

Jesus died for the sins of mankind,everyone is guilty of the death of Jesus.

 

[Cypress]

THE JEWS AND THEIR LIES.

Three books written in the first century that give the account of the crucifixion all tell of Pilate's extreme reluctance to carry out the Jew's execution of Jesus. But, Pilate eventually did it, out of the Jew's threats of riot and rebellion, and after they said they'd take the blame. Even Jewish tradition, as recorded in the Talmud, proudly credits the Jews with killing Jesus for blasphemy. The king of the Jews, Herod, found no guilt in Jesus. "When Herod saw Jesus, he was very glad, for he had long desired to see him, because he had heard about him... The chief priests and the scribes stood by, vehemently accusing him... Pilate then called together the chief priests and the rulers and the people, and said to them, 'You brought me this man as one who was misleading the people. And after examining him before you, behold, I did not find this man guilty of any of your charges against him. Neither did Herod.'" (From the Gospel of Luke)

Cypress, why do you want to be such an embarrassing and pathetic liar? Come on asswipe, what historical source supports your claim that Rome wanted Jesus dead for treason? Come on, faggot, put up or shut up.

My source is the expert opinion of a trained, published, and highly reputable scholar of religious history and the New Testament.

The scholarly and expert opinion of a trained professor of religion carries far more weight than the opinion of an obscure, Trump-loving message board poster.

Your bone to pick is with the expert opinion of Professor Bart Ehrman, religious historian and noted New Testament scholar.

Your opinion is not worth more than a bucket of warm piss. The burden is on you to provide the opinion of trained, published, scholarly New Testament experts to support your claim that the “God damn Jews” are to blame for the execution of Jesus.

 

[Bobb]

Jesus died for the sins of mankind,everyone is guilty of the death of Jesus.

It doesn't help that in another thread you claimed Israel's current president was the son of Joseph and Mary over 2000 years ago. Fcking stupid!

If you get a present from Santa Clause, does that make you a thief? That's your logic, fcking moron, in declaring "everyone" guilty for murdering Jesus. The Jews killed Jesus and God damned them to eternal Hell for it, so says the Bible. But, you reject the Bible, in both secular and religious terms. Maybe God will forgive you because you're so incredibly ignorant.

 

[Mason Melchizedek]

It doesn't help that in another thread you claimed Israel's current president was the son of Joseph and Mary over 2000 years ago. Fcking stupid!

If you get a present from Santa Clause, does that make you a thief? That's your logic, fcking moron, in declaring "everyone" guilty for murdering Jesus. The Jews killed Jesus and God damned them to eternal Hell for it, so says the Bible. But, you reject the Bible, in both secular and religious terms. Maybe God will forgive you because you're so incredibly ignorant.

You're confused,I don't comment on present Israel political leaders.

 

[Bobb]

My source is the expert opinion of a trained, published, and highly reputable scholar of religious history and the New Testament.

Your source is antichristian bigots who reject the historical record for some bullshit they find by trying to read in between the lines.

 

[Cypress]

Your source is antichristian bigots who reject the historical record for some bullshit they find by trying to read in between the lines.

^^Shoddy and tepid effort.

I accept your concession that you have no trained, reputable, published New Testament scholars and religious historians who will support your assertion that "the God damned Jews" are to blame for the execution of Jesus.

You can beg all you like, but there is no way I am ever going to accept the opinion of an obscure, anti-Semitic, Trump-loving message board poster as a credible source of New Testament scholarship.

 

[Bobb]

You're confused,I don't comment on present Israel political leaders.

My question was about the president of Israel. That he's a political leader is irrelevant to my question. His only relevancy is that he's a Jew. I asked what makes him and Jesus Jews, and you pointed to Jesus' genealogy. You're wrong! The current Israeli president wasn't born to Joseph and Mary over 2000 years ago.

The confusion is all yours. You don't know anything about what you're talking about.

 

[Judy Johnstone]

My question was about the president of Israel. That he's a political leader is irrelevant to my question. His only relevancy is that he's a Jew. I asked what makes him and Jesus Jews, and you pointed to Jesus' genealogy. You're wrong! The current Israeli president wasn't born to Joseph and Mary over 2000 years ago.

The confusion is all yours. You don't know anything about what you're talking about.

Are you allowed to go potty without your nurse?

 

[Celticguy]

Jesus died for the sins of mankind,everyone is guilty of the death of Jesus.

In concept you are right. He had to die to fulfill his new covenant.
That said...
Josephus also mentioned Pilate’s notorious role in agreeing to the execution of Jesus. According to the Gospels, the Sanhedrin, an elite council of priestly and lay elders, arrested Jesus during the Jewish festival of Passover, deeply threatened by his teachings. They dragged him before Pilate to be tried for blasphemy—for claiming, they said, to be King of the Jews. And they pressured Pilate, the only one with power to impose a death sentence, to call for his crucifixion.

The chain of events did have jewish leaders accuse him in such a way as to threaten Pilate. The distinction in the meaning of king being lost.

RCC chose to not hold the jewish leadership accountable mainly because if God was intent upon making a new covenant he had to die and the particulars are not that significant.

But to sink to antisemitism over this is a blasphemy to Christ's sacrifice. You not only have missed the point but fkaunt it as well.

 

[Mason Melchizedek]

In concept you are right. He had to die to fulfill his new covenant.
That said...
Josephus also mentioned Pilate’s notorious role in agreeing to the execution of Jesus. According to the Gospels, the Sanhedrin, an elite council of priestly and lay elders, arrested Jesus during the Jewish festival of Passover, deeply threatened by his teachings. They dragged him before Pilate to be tried for blasphemy—for claiming, they said, to be King of the Jews. And they pressured Pilate, the only one with power to impose a death sentence, to call for his crucifixion.

The chain of events did have jewish leaders accuse him in such a way as to threaten Pilate. The distinction in the meaning of king being lost.

RCC chose to not hold the jewish leadership accountable mainly because if God was intent upon making a new covenant he had to die and the particulars are not that significant.

But to sink to antisemitism over this is a blasphemy to Christ's sacrifice. You not only have missed the point but fkaunt it as well.

The first chain of events to Christ Death,was the First Passover!

 

[Bobb]

The chain of events did have jewish leaders accuse him in such a way as to threaten Pilate. The distinction in the meaning of king being lost.

Some translations made by liars changes the word "Jews" to "Jewish leaders" in attempt to minimize the role of the Jews. It makes little difference. Jewish leaders are still Jews. And, the Bible still holds the Jews, as a people, guilty for killing Jesus. Herod, the Jewish leader, found no guilt in Jesus.

 

[Mason Melchizedek]

Some translations made by liars changes the word "Jews" to "Jewish leaders" in attempt to minimize the role of the Jews. It makes little difference. Jewish leaders are still Jews. And, the Bible still holds the Jews, as a people, guilty for killing Jesus. Herod, the Jewish leader, found no guilt in Jesus.

You killed Jesus with every sin.

 

[Cypress]

Are the Gospels anti-Semitic?

The chronologically earliest canonical Gospel (Mark) - and thus the closest in time to the actual events - is fairly neutral on the Jewish people, and does not act sympathetic to Pontius Pilate or attempt to make him look like a hero-of-sorts trying his best to spare Jesus.

It is when you get into the later Gospels that there is an attempt by the early Christian writers to paint the Jewish people in the worst light possible.

Matthew has “the entire crowd” of Jews at Jesus’ trial cry out responsibility for Jesus' death: “His blood be upon us and our children” (Matt. 27:25)

or John, who, most remarkably of all, claims that the Jews are not the children of God but the children of the devil (John 8).

https://ehrmanblog.org/anti-judaism-in-the-gospel-of-luke/

I do not think one can reasonably claim that the bible is anti-Semitic, because the very term anti-Semitism is 19th century lexicon that did not exist in antiquity.

However, this New Testament language from the Gospels of John and Mathew have been used for 2,000 years to fuel the worst instincts in Christians against the Jewish people. They certainly played some role in the ethnic cleansing and persecution of Jews in Europe over two millennium. Undoubtedly, the early Christian writers had a vested interest - whether political, economic, or cultural - to start placing more and more of the blame on the Jews for the execution of Jesus, and to make the Romans and Pontius Pilate look more and more innocent.

At the height of power of the Roman Empire, when Christians were as risk of persecution, it may have just made sense to curry favor with the Romans and paint them in the best light possible in the chronologically-later canonical writings of the late first century.

 

[Bobb]

The chronologically earliest canonical Gospel (Mark) - and thus the closest in time to the actual events - is fairly neutral on the Jewish people, and does not act sympathetic to Pontius Pilate or attempt to make him look like a hero-of-sorts trying his best to spare Jesus.

Mark blames the Jews. Mark is sympathetic to Pilate. Cypress, why do you want to be such an embarrassing liar, fcktard? Mark tells of Pilate encouraging Jesus to give a defense. Mark tells of Pilate exploiting a Jewish holiday to try to get Jesus released (vs. a murderer). Mark tells of Pilate pressing the Jews and their unsupported charge. Only Mark's brevity reveals why he Mark doesn't go into the all the other ways Pilate tried to save the Jews.

It is when you get into the later Gospels that there is an attempt by the early Christian writers to paint the Jewish people in the worst light possible.

You may be a fcking liar, but you do know the Bible better any Zionist fcktard who thinks s/he is a Christian. Yes, three Gospels do paint the JEWish PEOPLE in the WORST possible light, because they are the worst possible people, the Devil's own spawn. And, Mark isn't far behind.

I do not think one can reasonably claim that the bible is anti-Semitic, because the very term anti-Semitism is 19th century lexicon that did not exist in antiquity.

The idiotic term "anti-Semitism" doesn't need to have existed in the past for the term to be applied to something in the past. You know that, cowardly fcktard.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

“Blame the God damned Jews for the death of Jesus!” – recently posted by a Trump-loving jpp.com conservative poster



Cliff notes: It is a historical fact that Jesus was killed by the Romans for political treason against Rome. The Roman governor Pontius Pilate would not have cared one whit if the Jewish authorities disagreed with Jesus on matters of Jewish tradition and religious practice. The bottom line: Jewish people are not accountable for the execution of Jesus, in spite of the claims of some Trump supporters.

First off Crypuss God's last name isn't Damn!

 

[Mason Melchizedek]

First off Crypuss God's last name isn't Damn!

Cypress was quoting Bobb!You took it completely out of context.

 

[Bobb]

Cypress was quoting Bobb!You took it completely out of context.

Jesus told parables of God damning the Jews to Hell, and then with Jesus in the lead, the Roman armies crushed the Jews in 70 AD. "The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice" so said the thieving, raping negro MLK Jr. who stole it from the white man Theodore Parker.

So, Miss Frank, do you still think the current President of Israel has Joseph and Mary, dead 2000 years, as dad and mom? At least Cypress knows he's a liar. You're an idiot who believes the antichristian lies.

 

[Cypress]

Jesus told parables of God damning the Jews to Hell, and then with Jesus in the lead, the Roman armies crushed the Jews in 70 AD. "The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice" so said the thieving, raping negro MLK Jr. who stole it from the white man Theodore Parker.

So, Miss Frank, do you still think the current President of Israel has Joseph and Mary, dead 2000 years, as dad and mom? At least Cypress knows he's a liar. You're an idiot who believes the antichristian lies.

^^ The forum most noted anti-Semite.

"Blame the God damned Jews for Jesus' death!!!"

^^^ the opinion of obscure message board poster Blob, jpp.com

"What is most intriguing (and enlightening) is that over time in the Christian tradition – both inside the New Testament and outside of it – Pilate becomes more and more innocent in the death of Jesus with the passing of time. You can see this clearly simply by lining up the Gospels chronologically and seeing how they portray Pilate at the trial of Jesus.

Our earliest Gospel is Mark (15:1-15). There Pilate is somewhat reluctant to do what the Jewish leaders ask him to do – crucify Jesus – and he seems a bit bewildered. After a very brief trial Pilate, does what they ask. Here Pilate is simply complying with the Jews’ wishes; he puts up some resistance, but not a whole lot"

^^^ Dr. Bart Erhman, PhD. New Testament Scholar and Professor of Religious History, University of North Carolina

The chronologically later Gospels have the "entire crowd" of Jews begging to take the blame and have the blood of Jesus blamed on their Children.

By the time one gets the the chronologically last Gospel, the Jews are actually being called children of the Devil.


It is unequivocal that over the passage of time, the early Christian authors tried to place more and more blame on the Jews, and make the Romans look more and more innocent with respect to the execution of Jesus of Nazareth.