The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis
- Thread starter Haiku
- Start date
Robo
Verified User
Oh Shucks!!! And here I was so looking forward to being educated and finding out gleefully that we really don’t have a 16 trillion $ National Debt and all of our socialist programs aren’t really bleeding red ink. I reckon I’ll just have to go on believing that since you won’t tell me any different.
I told you how to educate yourself. Obviously you are not teachable or you wouldn't be so fucking ignorant in the first place. Now go pick up some dogshit.
Robo
Verified User
All you told me was to click on some leftwinger’s propaganda site and watch him insult Republicans. When I ask you how come he didn’t deny the 16 trillion $ national debt, the fact that America’s federal socialist programs were bleeding red ink or the fact that the most socially liberal European countries were economically bankrupted, you told me it wasn’t your pay-grade to educate me. Now you want me to go pick up dog shit? Is that what lefties use for tea leaves to read our economic future?
But it does not ensure a larger future income and neither does the borrowing of the US government. Instead it competes for resources with investments in more productive lines.
Liberty
Libertarian Minded
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
The GOP certainly has a crisis, but this was a pathetic and weak argument for it, from the moron Krugman. At the point we find ourselves at, both politically and culturally as a society, the debt doesn't really matter anymore. We aren't going to address it, we are going to continue to elect politicians who promise us stuff we can't afford, and we'll just keep printing money and borrowing as long as possible. At some point, we will experience complete financial collapse, the likes of which no American has ever known. But there is really not a reason to argue this point with Liberals, they don't want to believe this will happen, and that's probably for the best.
We have raised up several generations of individuals who are spoiled and stupid, and this is a dangerous combo, as we will find out soon enough, no need to continue trying to convince them of their stupidity. Many of us loved what this country used to be, the freedoms and liberty it once enjoyed, but those days are winding down, as we slowly and methodically watch modern Liberals convert us into a Socialist totalitarian state. Again, no need to argue this point with them, they simply reject anything that doesn't conform to the propaganda. We will watch helplessly as our freedoms are eroded and liberty becomes a distant memory of the past. We will see our grandchildren enslaved by the state to support the ruling class, and everything that every American soldier has given his life for, will be forgotten.
The GOP had the opportunity to turn things around in 2012, but they were reluctant to take on the Liberals with a strong Conservative message, opting instead, to moderate and attempt to fight on the Liberal's terms. Their reluctance to embrace Conservatism resulted in a great chasm between various factions of Conservatives, and they were simply not strong enough to defeat the Liberals. Since the election, they have attempted to blame the most ardent Conservatives, the Tea Party, and try to continue moderating and capitulating to Liberals, trying to "work a deal" with them, in order to appear formidable and credible as a political party. But the Liberals snuffed them in the last election, so the GOP appears to be akin to an abused animal. They don't know what they should do next, they just cower in the corner and hope to not be beaten again.
The sad thing is, I believe it's now too late to turn things around. I believe 2012 was the last chance, and it wouldn't have been easy then. Now, with 4 more years of Liberal Socialist Marxist policy, we can forget about it. We won't ever bring America back. The momentum from the win, the fracturing of the Conservative base, and the GOP continuing to flounder and fail, will result in more Liberal policy than any of us have witnessed in our lifetimes. These policies are designed to push us into Socialism, then into Communism. Exactly where the Liberals want us to be. The GOP is too damaged to stop it, there could be a viable third party to emerge, but I doubt that as well. I think we have to resign ourselves to the fact that we are destined to become the United Socialist States of America, and the event that kicks this off will be our financial demise.
We have raised up several generations of individuals who are spoiled and stupid, and this is a dangerous combo, as we will find out soon enough, no need to continue trying to convince them of their stupidity. Many of us loved what this country used to be, the freedoms and liberty it once enjoyed, but those days are winding down, as we slowly and methodically watch modern Liberals convert us into a Socialist totalitarian state. Again, no need to argue this point with them, they simply reject anything that doesn't conform to the propaganda. We will watch helplessly as our freedoms are eroded and liberty becomes a distant memory of the past. We will see our grandchildren enslaved by the state to support the ruling class, and everything that every American soldier has given his life for, will be forgotten.
The GOP had the opportunity to turn things around in 2012, but they were reluctant to take on the Liberals with a strong Conservative message, opting instead, to moderate and attempt to fight on the Liberal's terms. Their reluctance to embrace Conservatism resulted in a great chasm between various factions of Conservatives, and they were simply not strong enough to defeat the Liberals. Since the election, they have attempted to blame the most ardent Conservatives, the Tea Party, and try to continue moderating and capitulating to Liberals, trying to "work a deal" with them, in order to appear formidable and credible as a political party. But the Liberals snuffed them in the last election, so the GOP appears to be akin to an abused animal. They don't know what they should do next, they just cower in the corner and hope to not be beaten again.
The sad thing is, I believe it's now too late to turn things around. I believe 2012 was the last chance, and it wouldn't have been easy then. Now, with 4 more years of Liberal Socialist Marxist policy, we can forget about it. We won't ever bring America back. The momentum from the win, the fracturing of the Conservative base, and the GOP continuing to flounder and fail, will result in more Liberal policy than any of us have witnessed in our lifetimes. These policies are designed to push us into Socialism, then into Communism. Exactly where the Liberals want us to be. The GOP is too damaged to stop it, there could be a viable third party to emerge, but I doubt that as well. I think we have to resign ourselves to the fact that we are destined to become the United Socialist States of America, and the event that kicks this off will be our financial demise.
Robo
Verified User
I always have to laugh a little when I see so-called “conservatives” bemoan so-called “conservatism.” How it’s failing, it’s non-loyalist, it’s cowardice in the heat of political battle and on and on. Just exactly what in hell is a conservative, or for that matter “proper” conservatism? Does anybody really know? Who can articulate a proper definition of true conservatism? Is it the religious bigots that would have us governed by a theocracy? Is it the militarist Industrial Complex promoters? Is it the homophobic anti-gay movement? Is it the traditionalist marriage mongers? Is it the world police advocates? Just what in hell is orthodox conservatism?
Seems to me that modern conservatism is little different than modern liberalism. It’s simply authoritarianism of another flavor. If modern conservatism is being whipped like a rented mule by socialism, it seems that maybe it deserves to be trounced by some political other because modern conservatism has little to nothing to do with “liberty” and the traditional classical liberalism of maximum rights and individual freedoms and limited government. From my viewpoint the GOP is just another BIG government, crony capitalist authoritarian cartel.
Modern conservatives tout the Constitution and claim loyalty to it, then give us the unconstitutional authoritarian Drug War. They claim constitutional loyalty then give us undeclared unconstitutional foreign wars. They claim constitutional loyalties, then give us constitutionally non-authorized “Prescription Drugs for Seniors,” the “Faith Based Welfare Initiative” and “The Patriot Act.”
The GOP that once ended slavery in America cut its own throat by opposing Civil Rights legislation thereby handing the vote of folks of color over to the modern socialist liberals and America is getting more “colored” every day and white folks will soon be the “minority.” The GOP that once opposed foreign meddling, the world police force and idiot involvements in foreign wars then adopted the Democrats Neo-Roman Empire philosophy of military world dominance. The GOP that once fought for limited federal governance and State’s Rights, became the BIG federal governance party of neo-fascist neo-conservative types with its own set of federal mandates and subordination of the States. The GOP that was once truly loyal to the sanity and principles of constitutionalism now simply pays lip service to the Constitution, then governs in opposition to it.
So, just what in hell does modern conservatism, i. e. the GOP stand for today other than a slightly different flavor of BIG government?
Bankruptcy will eventually kill off the socialist left. They’re writing their own ticket to their own demise. The bribery scam is now 16 trillion $ worth of insolvable problems and rising like the morning sun. The real question is what’s next?
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
Well I think you are about to find out the difference between Conservatism and Liberalism. Many people hold your view, I don't dispute that. I can't argue that the GOP has stood for true Conservative principles, or even been a good representative of Conservative values recently. But Conservatism, as you say, is fragmented. What IS a Conservative? What ARE orthodox Conservative values? Just as many social conservatives didn't vote for Romney because he wasn't strong pro-life or anti-abortion, as libertarian conservatives because he was too much like a Democrat. Liberals all voted for Obama, even the ones who criticized him for not being liberal enough.
The problem I see with viewpoints like yours, is this idea that you believe everyone should hold your personal views, and if not, you can't budge an inch to meet them in the middle. I see the same problem with social conservative zealots as well. It seems that all the various factions of conservatism wants to carry the Conservative banner and adopt a hubris about their particular incarnation of Conservatism, rejecting all others. I've preached about this for years. I am a Conservative, I have staunch Conservative values, and I would prefer a strong Conservative candidate, but I am also a realist. I understand that we live in a great big nation full of different opinions and different variations of Conservatism, and everyone simply can't get what they want. The fact that we can't seem to come together with a meeting of the minds, and define what we stand for and who we are, has resulted in a Liberal coalition that can't be defeated. Now, we will be a Liberal nation, like that or not, it's a fact of life.
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
I think the GOP voted unanimously for the CRA, if I am not mistaken. They certainly weren't the "opposition" to it, that was the Democrats-turned-Dixiecrats. Of course, if you accept the Liberal meme, the "Dixiecrats" all somehow turned into Republicans after Civil Rights, but we just don't have any actual examples of this. George Wallace, Robert Byrd, and Lester Maddox, were life-long Democrats, they never changed parties. These prominent leading voices against desegregation, had some sort of "reformation" which absolved them of any culpability for their actions. Strom Thurmond recanted just like they did, but he changed parties, however, was considered a racist until the day he died.
Robo
Verified User
But I don’t even know what “conservatism” is and I never met anybody that could actually articulate what true conservatism is. I’ve noticed religious zealots that claim to be conservatives. I’ve noticed world police force types and militarist hawks that claim to be conservatives. I’ve noticed homophobes who claim to be conservatives. I’ve noticed people who vote for Republicans but aren’t homophobes or militarist types or world police force advocates or necessarily anti-abortionist or anti-gay marriage or even religious zealots that claim to be conservatives. I’ve concluded that so-called conservatives actually have no particular principles, they’re more or less a hodge-podge of folks that just don’t want to be identified as liberals, because they think liberalism is nuts. Most claim to be economically conservative but they support all kinds of government mandated socialist programs and want them to be continued but fixed or just run by Republicans instead of Democrats. They want their share of Social Security and Medicare, and any other government program including welfare payments they think they might need at one time or another but they usually bitch about people who are actually getting benefits from those programs. The Tea Party wants government to cut spending, but few if any want their personal government handouts cut.
I don’t even bother to call the left “liberals” because there’s little to nothing actually liberal about them, they’re socialist authoritarians. I see very little difference between them and people who claim to be conservatives.
If you know what a true conservative actually is, I’d be interested in your definition thereof.
Robo
Verified User
So there’s no such thing as “true orthodox” conservatism, right?
Robo
Verified User
Well I gotta tell you that my personal views, i. e. “principles,” aren’t for sale or compromise because they’re consistent with our Constitution. You see I believe that’s exactly what’s wrong with our nation and our government today. Politicians have trashed the literal strict construct of the Constitution. Washington deal making and Constitution ignorance is precisely our major problem.
I can’t say “I feel your pain,” because my political ideology is dictated to me by the strict construction of the Constitution. Maybe so-called conservatives should adopt that genius blueprint for a consistent set of political morals and political values and ideology? Be yea fair warned though that the ideology incorporates “true liberalism,” i. e. The Bill Of Rights. For most so-called conservatives I know, that’s not an inviting thought. It contains stuff like equality and freedom and minding your own business, State’s Rights, separation of government and religion, no Drug War, no Patriot Act, and the right of privacy. Then there’s Article One, Section Eight that restricts the federal government to only it’s particular constitutionally authorized and enumerated powers and everything else is a power authorized and reserved to the States or the people. Not many so-called conservatives I know could handle that or even care to try.
Robo
Verified User
Oh but there were a whole bunch of old southern Dixecrats that transferred into the Republican Party. Strom Thurmond was simply one of many and southern state Republicans began running for office on anti-equal rights platforms and captured most of the south for the Republican Party that even remains to this day.
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
All I can do is articulate what it means for me to be a Conservative. In the broadest sense, it means to favor values of conservation. That may include conserving traditionalist values, or conserving resources. It may also include conserving government regulation, allowing for more personal freedom and liberty. As you can see, there may already be some dichotomy in these views, how can you conserve traditional values and also allow more personal liberty? How can you favor more conservation of resources and also support more capitalist exploitation of resources? To me, the difference is in what I support personally, and what I can accept socially or politically.
I favor a smaller, more limited government. That is not to say that I favor no government at all. I can accept that most people want something different than myself, and we live in a society where everyone's voice should be considered. I often reconcile the contradictions with a strong advocacy for state rights as opposed to federal control. People of a state should have the right to establish their own boundaries, and the purpose of a federal government, should only be a doorstop to prevent encroachment on Constitutional rights which are inalienable. What we currently have, is federal government mandating the boundaries, and states obliged to conform. This is statism as opposed to federalism, and I disagree with this style of government.
From a purely social standpoint, Conservatism means pragmatically embracing traditional values, standing for what is right and opposing what is wrong with societal culture and progress. Conservatives err on the side of protecting life and liberty, even when this may not be popular. It means we can't turn our backs on our fellow man around the world, who is fighting for freedom, we have to support them to remain true to our principles. We either believe that all men are created and endowed with the right to be free, or we don't. There is no compromise. It doesn't mean we have to militarily engage in every battle worldwide, but we should always stand for what we believe in and support it whenever we can. It may not always be popular or in our best interest, but we must stand on our principles or they mean nothing.
Contrasting these beliefs with modern Liberalism, and the Liberal believes in what is ostensibly Marxist Socialist Communism and state authoritarianism. There is really no other way to put that, and it seems to be constantly met with criticism, but it's basically the truth. This stems from years of Liberal academia, embracing the teachings of people like Karl Marx and Chairman Mao, and relegating these people to the status of heroes, who were ahead of their time. Disregard the fact that their political ideologies have all failed miserably, and did not produce the promised result, we continue to be bombarded with the notion that they can work, if only we give them the chance.
Added to the mix, are the new-age Libertarians, who somehow believe we live in an idealistic world, where everyone acts responsibly and behaves according to Libertarian philosophy. I have a lot of strong libertarian views, but I also realize people are flawed, and because of that, we have to establish boundaries and parameters to personal liberty. We simply can't legalize all drugs, it would be a social catastrophe. If we woke up tomorrow, and everyone had a Libertarian brain with a Libertarian way of thinking, perhaps Libertarianism would work, but that is never going to be reality.
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
Then you shouldn't have a problem giving me some more examples aside from Mr. Thurmond.
Cancel 2020.1
Canceled
Liberalism and Marxism are 2 completely different political philosophies.
If you think they are the same, you don't understand either. Do some reading.
If you think they are the same, you don't understand either. Do some reading.
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
Perhaps you are right, but look... If you are at a dance and the DJ is playing country music, but you prefer rock and roll, you can sit there and bitch all night about the music, and refuse to dance, and guess who will be going home alone? If you're going home from the dance, and a sign says the bridge is out ahead, you can stubbornly insist this has always been the way you've gone home, and refuse to acknowledge the sign, and guess who isn't going to make it home? In other words, there are times when it's admirable to defiantly stand on your principles, and there are times when it's just plain stupid.
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
So are Libertarianism and Conservatism. So are Social and Fiscal conservatism. I have done some reading, specifically, the Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx, and the teachings of Mao, etc. I can draw direct correlation to the Liberal views of today. That said, there are also many similarities or commonalities between Liberalism and Libertarianism. Because they may contain commonality, doesn't mean I am saying they are the same ideology. Ostensibly (go look that word up), the Liberals are currently embracing the same principles of Marxist Socialist Communism.