The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Ostensibly! Such a big word. Really good for you.

Liberals are not embracing or implementing the principles of Marxist Socialist Communism. You really don't understand the concepts in play here.
 
So are Libertarianism and Conservatism. So are Social and Fiscal conservatism. I have done some reading, specifically, the Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx, and the teachings of Mao, etc. I can draw direct correlation to the Liberal views of today. That said, there are also many similarities or commonalities between Liberalism and Libertarianism. Because they may contain commonality, doesn't mean I am saying they are the same ideology. Ostensibly (go look that word up), the Liberals are currently embracing the same principles of Marxist Socialist Communism.

Yes and there are many similarities between facism and conservatism as well.
 
Added to the mix, are the new-age Libertarians, who somehow believe we live in an idealistic world, where everyone acts responsibly and behaves according to Libertarian philosophy.

On the contrary! Libertarianism simply accepts the fact that humanoids are imperfect yet are endowed by whoever or whatever they individually decide is their personal creator to experience any and all liberties they chose for themselves as long as we don’t infringe on the rights of others. Libertarians are not “pie-in-the-sky” idealist believing that there is such a thing a human purity or a world of Shangri-La. Libertarians simply believe in personal and individual responsibility and the right to fail as well as succeed. Libertarians simply believe that we as individuals have not just a better concept of how we should live our lives without interference from government than any government can decide for us how to live our lives, but we also have that right and along with that right we also have the responsibility that goes with it. It’s called “freedom.”

I have a lot of strong libertarian views, but I also realize people are flawed, and because of that, we have to establish boundaries and parameters to personal liberty

And so do libertarians! The difference is we set the “boundaries & limits” at the point of everything and anything as long as no rights of others are violated. For the perfect examples, gay marriages and drug use. The right of contract between agreeing adults infringes on nobody’s rights not involved in said contract. The right to put into our own bodies whatever we chose because “WE” own our bodies not any freggin government and individuals alone have the responsibility for any consequences for the choices they make and governments are the very worse decision makers when it comes to moral standards for “adult” individuals.

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We simply can't legalize all drugs, it would be a social catastrophe.

In case you haven’t noticed, the Drug War is the “catastrophe.” There’s no real difference between the Drug War and government’s misguided and repealed prohibition of alcohol. Neither did anything to eliminate or even limit the amount of alcohol or illegal drugs. Both simply created a high profit tax free market for criminal types. Both corrupted law enforcement and politicians. Both clogged up our judicial and penal system. Both created “more” crime and criminals. Both incarcerated thousands of otherwise non-violent people. Both created violence along our borders and in our cities and even suburbs. The consequences of alcohol prohibition and the Drug War far, far out-strip any consequences of the free use thereof.

If we woke up tomorrow, and everyone had a Libertarian brain with a Libertarian way of thinking, perhaps Libertarianism would work, but that is never going to be reality.

Well, our founders disagreed. Most had libertarian brains and a libertarian way of thinking. They proved it when they created our Constitution and its Bill Of Rights. They proposed and created limits on the federal government. They promoted the idea that our bodies and belongings belonged to “US” and not the government. They promoted the right of privacy, religious freedom, freedom of speech, the right of self defense, and the right of free agreeable contract. They didn’t create a Drug War or decide who we could make marriage contracts with.

“The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.” (Amendment 9, United States Constitution)

The only possible disclaimer to Amendment 9 is “when an action infringes on the rights of others.” Any action that can’t be shown to infringe on any right of others “IS” a constitutional right. What we do with our “OWN” bodies and “WHO” we make agreeable contracts with, including marriage contracts is none of the damn government’s business.
 
Yeah, conservation... Conservative means you are conservative with the truth and hardly ever express any. If you are a southern conservative it means you want to conserve rights to white heterosexual Christian males who own property (other people).

Many conservatives are just crude nationalists, which is shown by their use of flags (wrong one).
 
Liberalism and Marxism are 2 completely different political philosophies.

If you think they are the same, you don't understand either. Do some reading.

Liberalism as I know it does away with liberty.

So does marxism.

What am I missing here?
 
So are Libertarianism and Conservatism. So are Social and Fiscal conservatism. I have done some reading, specifically, the Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx, and the teachings of Mao, etc. I can draw direct correlation to the Liberal views of today. That said, there are also many similarities or commonalities between Liberalism and Libertarianism. Because they may contain commonality, doesn't mean I am saying they are the same ideology. Ostensibly (go look that word up), the Liberals are currently embracing the same principles of Marxist Socialist Communism.

What a nut case statement.

I mean,,,, "my brothers wifes lord have mercy"!

Libertarians are for liberty, and limited gov't.

Republicans, and your brand of conservatism stand for big gov't, and tyranny. (The NAZI SS vs the spirit of the US constitution)

You're such a sh*t faced sh*t head at times Dixie.

You would do better if you would stop eating your foot trying to explain libertarianism.
 
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What a nut case statement.

I mean,,,, "my brothers wife lord have mercy"!

Libertarians are for liberty, and limited gov't.

Republicans, and your brand of conservatism stand for big gov't, and tyranny. (The NAZI SS vs the spirit of the US constitution)

You're such a sh*t faced sh*t head at times Dixie.

You would do better if you would stop eating your foot trying to explain libertarianism.

Toe jam!
 
On the contrary! [NOT!] Libertarianism simply accepts the fact that humanoids are imperfect yet are endowed by whoever or whatever they individually decide is their personal creator to experience any and all liberties they chose for themselves as long as we don’t infringe on the rights of others. [blah blah] Libertarians are not “pie-in-the-sky” idealist believing that there is such a thing a human purity or a world of Shangri-La. [yes they do] Libertarians simply believe in personal and individual responsibility and the right to fail as well as succeed. Libertarians simply believe that we as individuals have not just a better concept of how we should live our lives without interference from government than any government can decide for us how to live our lives, but we also have that right and along with that right we also have the responsibility that goes with it. It’s called “freedom.”

And just as is the case with ALL freedoms, there has to be societal boundaries and limitations to it. We can't just do whatever make us happy, as long as it ain't hurtin' nobody! You don't want to live in that world, and I sure as fuck don't. You think you do, because you somehow think that the rest of the country thinks like you and would act like you in any given situation, and that is simply not reality. People take advantage of no societal barriers, they exploit others, they push the boundaries of tolerance, and as much as you don't like to admit it, libertarians have their tolerance limits. There are things you simply do not wish to see society embrace, but you won't face this because you live in denial, thinking that everyone's mind works like a libertarian.

And so do libertarians! The difference is we set the “boundaries & limits” at the point of everything and anything as long as no rights of others are violated. For the perfect examples, gay marriages and drug use. The right of contract between agreeing adults infringes on nobody’s rights not involved in said contract. The right to put into our own bodies whatever we chose because “WE” own our bodies not any freggin government and individuals alone have the responsibility for any consequences for the choices they make and governments are the very worse decision makers when it comes to moral standards for “adult” individuals.

And there is a perfect example of you thinking that society rationalizes and operates under libertarian principles, when they don't. Cigarette companies just shelled out a trillion dollars for lawsuits from people who made the choice to smoke and get lung disease. Toyota just paid billions out to people too stupid to hit their brake pedal! If you buy a blow dryer, the warning tag is as big as the product, and cautions against such things as using the electric device in the shower. But with all this stuff, we are supposed to just throw caution to the wind and accept that people will make the right choices about drugs or what is appropriate marriage?


In case you haven’t noticed, the Drug War is the “catastrophe.” There’s no real difference between the Drug War and government’s misguided and repealed prohibition of alcohol. Neither did anything to eliminate or even limit the amount of alcohol or illegal drugs. Both simply created a high profit tax free market for criminal types. Both corrupted law enforcement and politicians. Both clogged up our judicial and penal system. Both created “more” crime and criminals. Both incarcerated thousands of otherwise non-violent people. Both created violence along our borders and in our cities and even suburbs. The consequences of alcohol prohibition and the Drug War far, far out-strip any consequences of the free use thereof.

It depends on what aspect of the drug war, and what perspective you examine context. Is the drug war against opium houses a catastrophe? In the early 1900s, we literally had opium dens, where people would go veg out and stay geeked on opium for days on end. Products being sold to the public, full of cocaine or other high-power drugs, causing addiction and deaths from overdose, but hey.... this is a catastrophe, so we should just go back to how it was and let people kill themselves if that's what they want to do, right? I agree that laws should be relaxed with regard to marijuana, I think it's less of a health risk than alcohol or tobacco, but I don't support full legalization of all drugs, that's insane, and shows a complete ignorance of history.

Well, our founders disagreed. Most had libertarian brains and a libertarian way of thinking. They proved it when they created our Constitution and its Bill Of Rights. They proposed and created limits on the federal government. They promoted the idea that our bodies and belongings belonged to “US” and not the government. They promoted the right of privacy, religious freedom, freedom of speech, the right of self defense, and the right of free agreeable contract. They didn’t create a Drug War or decide who we could make marriage contracts with.

You don't fucking know how our Founding Fathers were, you're SPECULATING! Yes they did restrain Federal power, and yes they did endorse personal liberty, but they also established a strong support for states rights, and the ability for states to determine their laws and boundaries regarding issues of the day. They would likely tell you that the Federal government has no right to tell you who to marry or what drugs you can use, that's a right reserved for the people and the state, not the federal government. There is no "right to privacy" in the constitution, this is an inferred right granted by the SCOTUS, on the basis of the 4th. Again, the Founding Fathers gave us a mechanism by which we are to determine what IS or ISN'T in accordance with our Constitution, and a way to amend the Constitution, if that determination is in contrast with public opinion.

“The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.” (Amendment 9, United States Constitution)

The only possible disclaimer to Amendment 9 is “when an action infringes on the rights of others.” Any action that can’t be shown to infringe on any right of others “IS” a constitutional right. What we do with our “OWN” bodies and “WHO” we make agreeable contracts with, including marriage contracts is none of the damn government’s business.

And when you get to be nominated for the SCOTUS, this will become relevant! Until then, it is simply your opinion of what the Constitution means. This takes us to the ROOT of your problem. You want to say that people aren't "following the constitution" but you mean that they are not following YOUR interpretations of the constitution, which isn't required or implied. YOU aren't the fucking KING! YOU don't get to decide what the Constitution means, for all to live by! We have a system and process where all voices are heard, and all of society's concerns are addressed, and We The People get to ultimately decide, not YOU!
 
And just as is the case with ALL freedoms, there has to be societal boundaries and limitations to it. We can't just do whatever make us happy, as long as it ain't hurtin' nobody! You don't want to live in that world, and I sure as fuck don't.

You should speak for yourself! Why wouldn’t I want to live in a world where people minded their own business instead of everybody else’s? As long as folks don’t infringe on anybody’s rights and freedoms what fucking business is it of yours what they do? Are you an ordained authoritarian sanctified by some God that you get to decide what other supposedly “free” adults get to do and what they don’t get to do just because you think what they’re doing isn’t moral or even in their best interest? How arrogant and authoritarian of you!

You think you do, because you somehow think that the rest of the country thinks like you and would act like you in any given situation, and that is simply not reality. People take advantage of no societal barriers, they exploit others, they push the boundaries of tolerance,

But isn’t that what the constitutional law of the land is supposed to be all about? The bottom line is everything is a right and freedom as long as it “DOES NOT INFRINGE ON ANY RIGHT OR FREEDOM OF OTHERS.” Just exactly what don’t you understand about that?

and as much as you don't like to admit it, libertarians have their tolerance limits.There are things you simply do not wish to see society embrace, but you won't face this because you live in denial, thinking that everyone's mind works like a libertarian.

True libertarians “tolerate” everything and anything “THAT DOESN’T VIOLATE ANY RIGHTS OR FREEDOMS OF OTHERS.” Libertarians won’t/don’t tolerate actions that violate and infringe on the rights and freedoms of others.

If I actually thought everybody’s minds worked like libertarians, I wouldn’t have anybody like you to argue with, now would I? It’s pretty apparent to me that there’s damn few libertarians as evidenced perfectly by you and the fact that the vast majority elect and reelect BIG government authoritarian idiots and Constitution violators and that’s why our nation is as fucked up, bankrupted and authoritarian as it is.
 
And there is a perfect example of you thinking that society rationalizes and operates under libertarian principles, when they don't. Cigarette companies just shelled out a trillion dollars for lawsuits from people who made the choice to smoke and get lung disease. Toyota just paid billions out to people too stupid to hit their brake pedal! If you buy a blow dryer, the warning tag is as big as the product, and cautions against such things as using the electric device in the shower. But with all this stuff, we are supposed to just throw caution to the wind and accept that people will make the right choices about drugs or what is appropriate marriage?

But libertarians believe it “IS” the rightful authority and duty of government to “honestly” inform the masses of products that may well injure or kill them. Libertarians simply deny that government has the authority or duty to prohibit a free people from the “FREEDOM” to make their own decisions and perform their own actions that don’t “INFRINGE OR VIOLATE THE RIGHTS OR FREEDOMS OF OTHERS.” In other words libertarians support the right of being smart “AND” stupid. Libertarians KNOW that governments can’t successfully legislate morals or intelligence. Libertarians understand that governments are made up of people just as flawed as the general populace and incorporate folks, many of whom are just as flawed, immoral and stupid as the general populace.

In the world of libertarianism, a drug addict that doesn’t infringe any rights of others in that action injures “NOBODY” but himself/herself. “WHO” adult people freely and agreeably decide to make marriage contracts with injures “NOBODY” and that’s none of government’s fucking business or mine or yours.
 
It depends on what aspect of the drug war, and what perspective you examine context. Is the drug war against opium houses a catastrophe? In the early 1900s, we literally had opium dens, where people would go veg out and stay geeked on opium for days on end. Products being sold to the public, full of cocaine or other high-power drugs, causing addiction and deaths from overdose, but hey.... this is a catastrophe, so we should just go back to how it was and let people kill themselves if that's what they want to do, right?

As long as they don’t infringe on any right or freedom of others, what business is it of yours, mine or the fucking government’s? In the days of the old opium dens, how much more tax free huge profit for criminal types was there? How many drug cartels operated along our borders and in our cities? How many drug related killings along our borders was there? How many politicians and cops were corrupted by it? How clogged up was our penal and judicial system? How much drug related violence was there in our cities and on our streets? In libertarian minds the “CATASTROPHE” is the stupid idiot Drug War. As was perfectly evidenced by the prohibition of alcohol, all the prohibition by government did was make a situation worse. Ditto the Drug War! What people do is none of my business, your business or the government’s business as long as they don’t violate the rights and freedoms of others.
 
I agree that laws should be relaxed with regard to marijuana, I think it's less of a health risk than alcohol or tobacco, but I don't support full legalization of all drugs, that's insane, and shows a complete ignorance of history.

The ignorance of history belongs to you!

So in your authoritarian genius you think you should decide what should be legal and what should not be legal? You think that even if the actions of others violates NO right or freedom of others “YOU” should decide for everybody just because YOUR moral standards are somehow injured?

You don't fucking know how our Founding Fathers were, you're SPECULATING! Yes they did restrain Federal power, and yes they did endorse personal liberty, but they also established a strong support for states rights, and the ability for states to determine their laws and boundaries regarding issues of the day. They would likely tell you that the Federal government has no right to tell you who to marry or what drugs you can use, that's a right reserved for the people and the state, not the federal government.

So what is the fucking Drug War? Is that a “STATE” operation or Richard Nixon’s “FEDERAL” creation?

I thank you for your help in making my case!

For your information, the States cannot violate the federal Constitution. Drug “prohibition” even by a State violates the 4th and 9th Amendments to our Constitution. The only rightful authority the States can claim relative to drugs is to “regulate” them just like alcohol and within the confines of our Constitution.

There is no "right to privacy" in the constitution, this is an inferred right granted by the SCOTUS, on the basis of the 4th. Again, the Founding Fathers gave us a mechanism by which we are to determine what IS or ISN'T in accordance with our Constitution, and a way to amend the Constitution, if that determination is in contrast with public opinion.

If the 4th amendment doesn’t guarantee the right of “privacy,” what the hell does it guarantee? The Supreme Court has “NO” authority to “GRANT RIGHTS,” our rights are “inalienable” as understood by our founders and documented in our founding documents.

Speaking of amendments, how come the federal government in its wisdom knew they had to pass an amendment to prohibit the transportation and sale of alcohol, (18th amendment), but Richard Tricky Dick Nixon never bothered with such to prohibit the sale and transportation of particular drugs? Is the Drug War constitutional?

And when you get to be nominated for the SCOTUS, this will become relevant! Until then, it is simply your opinion of what the Constitution means. This takes us to the ROOT of your problem. You want to say that people aren't "following the constitution" but you mean that they are not following YOUR interpretations of the constitution, which isn't required or implied. YOU aren't the fucking KING! YOU don't get to decide what the Constitution means, for all to live by]! We have a system and process where all voices are heard, and all of society's concerns are addressed, and We The People get to ultimately decide, not YOU!

But the Constitution is pretty easy to interpret. Answer the constitutional question I proposed in my last paragraph, (is the Drug War constitutional?)

Actually, the founders wrote the Constitution purposely so that the common citizen could understand it. We don’t have constitutional lawyers and Judges to “interpret” the Constitution, most 14 year olds can do that. We have constitutional lawyers and judges to “interpret” the linguistic gymnastics of written political legislation to make sure it conforms with and is justified by the “plain text” of our Constitution.
 
What people do is none of my business, your business or the government’s business as long as they don’t violate the rights and freedoms of others.

I just fundamentally disagree for numerous reasons here. First of all, I don't believe these things are the business of FEDERAL government, but they certainly ARE the business of STATE governments, through the will of the people. You continue to use this caveat of "as long as it doesn't violate the rights and freedoms of others" but this is only by your personal interpretations of what might fit that criteria. Again, as if the entire populace thinks and believes the same things you do. I can give you the examples of bestiality or marriage to 12-year-olds, and you immediately spout that this somehow "violates" a freedom or right of others but that is YOUR interpretation, not everyone agrees with you. Some would argue it is YOU who is standing in the way of them exercising their freedom, because you are uncomfortable with it. Others might argue that you taking a dick up the ass, potentially harms your health, which we now have to pay for taking care of... ergo: butt sex has to be prohibited again! Then we have the "unintended consequences" of your "free-for-all Freedom" measures, which you don't even wish to acknowledge, because you're too caught up in believing that everyone thinks and behaves like a libertarian. What happens when someone stoned on perfectly legal and obtainable mind-altering drugs, crashes a bus load of school kids and kills them all? Or when they drive through your home in the middle of the night and kill your family? What happens when nutballs like the one in CT, are zonked out on drugs and do the unthinkable because of that? You obviously didn't intend for this to happen, but it did, and it was the result of your ideas, so do we allow people to sue libertarians when it happens?

I suppose, you can find a way to explain to your children, when you go out in public, that all the disgusting immoral behaviors of perverts and sickos, is just people having the right to be free and act like wild baboons, but I don't want to have that conversation with my kids. I would rather instill in them, the idea that society does have boundaries and limitations, and we aren't free to act like wild animals in public. Oh...I'm just paranoid! Oh...that would never happen! YES, it does happen when you remove societal limitation and boundaries of acceptability, whether you realize it or not, because people don't all behave in a responsible and respectful manner, we don't all think and act like libertarians. We don't all grasp your concept of "if it's not hurtin' anybody, it's none of your business!"
 
We don't all grasp your concept of "if it's not hurtin' anybody, it's none of your business!"
Then you shouldn't have a problem with the gov't we have today.

We traded liberty for order, and now have neither.

You're a perfect example of why there is really no difference between the dems and the reps.
 
As long as they don’t infringe on any right or freedom of others, what business is it of yours, mine or the fucking government’s?

I have the right to keep the money I worked for and earned, and it shouldn't be spent to treat your AIDS from having butt sex. Your freedom to have butt sex, has resulted in an encroachment on my freedom to retain the money I worked to earn. In other words, "it harms others" for you to exercise that freedom, so by my definition and your criteria, we can outlaw homosexuality. I'm quite sure you don't agree with me, and that's fine, but we don't live in a society where everyone sees things the same way as you do, and that is my point here.
 
I have the right to keep the money I worked for and earned, and it shouldn't be spent to treat your AIDS from having butt sex.

No,,,, you don't have a right to your money. Our elders traded that right away for order.
 
Then you shouldn't have a problem with the gov't we have today.

We traded liberty for order, and now have neither.

You're a perfect example of why there is really no difference between the dems and the reps.

If you're going to quote me, use everything I said! I began the post with the statement that I didn't believe this was the role of FEDERAL government. I do have a problem with this stuff being mandated at the Federal level, I think it should be a matter for the states and people respectively. Get off your fucking soap box about trading liberty for order, and now having neither. You need to state a specific example of just what in the hell you're talking about, because that is a platitude and, I suspect, a rather obvious straw man. As for the difference between republicans and democrats, I wish there was a way we could "try before we buy" here, but there's really not.... we'll have to be enslaved to the state and ruled under a Marxist Communist regime, in order for your stupid ass to understand the differences, and there is no point in me trying to explain it to you.
 
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