The History of the Democrat Party

Southern Man said:
When I look at the Constitution I look at the entire document, not just a little piece of it. Judges were never supposed to have as much power as they do, and a Warrant can therefore be issued by someone other than a judge.
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the courts are a buffer between the government and the people. warrants are required to violate the rights of the people and there are certain criteria to meet. The british government gave their enforcers the power to write their own warrants and it was abused, that is why it is incumbent upon the courts to issue warrants now. when you look at the constitution, look to colonial history and experience to understand why things were written the way they were.
 
WinterBorn said:
And what about the searches of library databases. You know, the ones the librarians are not allowed to mention?
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I can't believe you carry on about ridiculous things like that.....the government wanted access to libraries because terrorists were using public computers to transmit emails.....nobody gives a shit what books you check out and never will,,,,
 
WinterBorn said:
When you asked what issues I had with the Patriot Act, I gave you specific examples.

"The portion that allows internet and phone taps without warrants?

The sections that allow the use of a "national security letter", which in addition to not requiring court approval, forbid the company being targetted from mentioning that the search was made.

The portions of the act that allow search warrants without showing probable cause."
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the problem is, you give examples that don't exist.....I can only conclude that your problem isn't with the Patriot Act but with your imagination......nothing in the Patriot Act "allows" warrantless phone taps....the only phone taps it refers to are those that were already legal under FISA and have been tested by the courts.....the "national security letter" is nothing more than a request for information....the only thing different from a phone company SELLING the same information to a credit card company so they can harass you about buying a credit card is the amount of money that changes hands.....and no provisions of the act permit search warrants without probable cause unless you buy into the argument that every search warrant that ever issued was issued without probable cause.....
 
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PostmodernProphet said:
I can't believe you carry on about ridiculous things like that.....the government wanted access to libraries because terrorists were using public computers to transmit emails.....nobody gives a shit what books you check out and never will,,,,
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So your defense of this is that no one will care what books anyone reads? That is it?

Sounds like the old "if you aren't guilty you won't care if the eavesdrop" argument.
 
PostmodernProphet said:
the problem is, you give examples that don't exist.....I can only conclude that your problem isn't with the Patriot Act but with your imagination......nothing in the Patriot Act "allows" warrantless phone taps....the only phone taps it refers to are those that were already legal under FISA and have been tested by the courts.....the "national security letter" is nothing more than a request for information....the only thing different from a phone company SELLING the same information to a credit card company so they can harass you about buying a credit card is the amount of money that changes hands.....and no provisions of the act permit search warrants without probable cause unless you buy into the argument that every search warrant that ever issued was issued without probable cause.....
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(§215) Allows FBI agents to investigate citizens for criminal activity without probable cause if they say it is for "intelligence purposes".


(§218) Allows law enforcement to search a person's home without anyone present and to delay notification indefinitely.



Those both seem pretty serious to me. The 4th amendment is clear about this.
 
WinterBorn said:
So your defense of this is that no one will care what books anyone reads? That is it?

Sounds like the old "if you aren't guilty you won't care if the eavesdrop" argument.
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no, my defense is you spend so much time talking out of your ass about things that AREN'T happening that you don't address the things that really ARE.....you're so busy worrying that someone will find out you have a Wizard of Oz fetish that you're ignoring the fact that library computers were the communication tool of choice among terrorists.....
 
WinterBorn said:
(§215) Allows FBI agents to investigate citizens for criminal activity without probable cause if they say it is for "intelligence purposes".


(§218) Allows law enforcement to search a person's home without anyone present and to delay notification indefinitely.



Those both seem pretty serious to me. The 4th amendment is clear about this.
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I'm curious about the source of your information....

SEC. 218. FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE INFORMATION.

Sections 104(a)(7)(B) and section 303(a)(7)(B) (50 U.S.C. 1804(a)(7)(B) and 1823(a)(7)(B)) of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 are each amended by striking `the purpose' and inserting `a significant purpose'.
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http://epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html

also, please note that section 215 does not include the words "intelligence purposes" anywhere in it's text....

why is it that the people that bitch about the Patriot Act the most are invariably the people who have never even looked at it.....
 
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PostmodernProphet said:
I can't believe you carry on about ridiculous things like that.....the government wanted access to libraries because terrorists were using public computers to transmit emails.....nobody gives a shit what books you check out and never will,,,,
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so I could use a public library computer to read/checkout/order books on chemical compounds used in explosives, how to make your own machine guns, and the art of war and the police/feds won't be getting a warrant for me?
 
PostmodernProphet said:
no, my defense is you spend so much time talking out of your ass about things that AREN'T happening that you don't address the things that really ARE.....you're so busy worrying that someone will find out you have a Wizard of Oz fetish that you're ignoring the fact that library computers were the communication tool of choice among terrorists.....
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If I had a Wizard of Oz fetish I wouldn't give a shit who found out.

What I am worried about is unlawful searches and a gov't who is over-stepping its boundaries.

The fact that terrorists used the library computers is not a valid reason for the invasion of privacy.
 
SmarterThanYou said:
so I could use a public library computer to read/checkout/order books on chemical compounds used in explosives, how to make your own machine guns, and the art of war and the police/feds won't be getting a warrant for me?
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good heavens no, they would simply shoot you down on the library steps before you had a chance to read them......
 
WinterBorn said:
The fact that terrorists used the library computers is not a valid reason for the invasion of privacy.
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well shucks.....let's be blunt....I'm prepared to fuck your privacy over six different ways to keep terrorists from repeating 9/11, but the Patriot Act hasn't done it once....only the paranoid need be alarmed....
 
PostmodernProphet said:
well shucks.....let's be blunt....I'm prepared to fuck your privacy over six different ways to keep terrorists from repeating 9/11, but the Patriot Act hasn't done it once....only the paranoid need be alarmed....
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Ok, blunt works for me.

I am not prepared to alter the US Constitution or its protections for any reason.
 
From the OP link:
Democrat Senator Robert Byrd: “I would rather die a thousand times and see old glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again than see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen of the wilds...”
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