The Lincoln Myth

Sardonic said:
I would love to see people like you in a year long experience on Fantasy Island being a slave! I wonder if you would come away with the same opinion? I doubt it.
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You illustrate the propensity of the gullible masses to let fantasies preclude the truth and reality......life is about the struggle of the fittest. If you want you and yours to survive you best look out for your own....if you are prepared to sacrifice yourself so that others may survive that is your choice....but do not try to force it on me.

There is a big reason Negroes are far different from all other races....their value being in their strong backs and weak minds....of course much of that came about due to the selective breeding that was utilized by their masters ...pairing physically strong types together to produce strong offspring.

Still yet....even with having to work hard...most slaves were quite happy and content....in the 1930's the Federal Government in the depths of the great depression comissioned a group of writers to go down South and document the oral histories of ex-slaves...many were still alive at that time. The majority of them expressed love and admiration for their ole mastah and how well they were treated and grew quite nostalgic about the good times they had on the plantation with the mastah. before all the yankee do gooders ruined it all.
 
Jarod said:
The civil war is an example of the benefit of federalism. The larger the voter base, the more diffuse regional prejudice becomes. If the State of Alabama was the sole electorate for the President we would have a very different nation. I dare say that racial prejudice would be much more tolerated.

You get less of a direct reflection of the people and more of a national consensus. This is also why the House of Representatives is often much more radical than the Senate. The bigger range of people you share power with the less direct representation you will get, but also the less tyranny over the minority.
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What we now have is a tyranny of the minority over the majority.
 
SmilinJack said:
You illustrate the propensity of the gullible masses to let fantasies preclude the truth and reality......life is about the struggle of the fittest. If you want you and yours to survive you best look out for your own....if you are prepared to sacrifice yourself so that others may survive that is your choice....but do not try to force it on me.

There is a big reason Negroes are far different from all other races....their value being in their strong backs and weak minds....of course much of that came about due to the selective breeding that was utilized by their masters ...pairing physically strong types together to produce strong offspring.

Still yet....even with having to work hard...most slaves were quite happy and content....in the 1930's the Federal Government in the depths of the great depression comissioned a group of writers to go down South and document the oral histories of ex-slaves...many were still alive at that time. The majority of them expressed love and admiration for their ole mastah and how well they were treated and grew quite nostalgic about the good times they had on the plantation with the mastah. before all the yankee do gooders ruined it all.
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You have now earned a well deserved ignore...For your weak mind
 
SmilinJack said:
No need to justify it now...at that time it was needed, wanted, available and thus existed. Just like today....cheap labor is still needed, wanted and available as in illegal mexican laborers....thus it exists....can you justify paying mexicans slave wages ....just depends on your point of view.....those who benefit from it and that is the only justification they need....they benefit from it.

All this hyperbole of the great evil of slavery just demonstrates how the gullible the public is....they play you like a banjo.
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Paying low wages to someone here illegally is a far cry from claiming to own another person as your property. There exists NO equivalency, moral or otherwise.

I have not read anyone state that they do not understand that slavery existed for economic purposes. What I, and others have stated, is that there existed no justification for its existence. Your pontificating about the economic realities of slavery is merely an explanation, one that just adds to the shame of the practice. Ending its existence, even at the great cost of a bloody and terrible war, was worth it.
 
Slavery was Right and Reasonable For That Time and thus justified

XLVIII DOMINATORS said:
Paying low wages to someone here illegally is a far cry from claiming to own another person as your property. There exists NO equivalency, moral or otherwise.

I have not read anyone state that they do not understand that slavery existed for economic purposes. What I, and others have stated, is that there existed no justification for its existence. Your pontificating about the economic realities of slavery is merely an explanation, one that just adds to the shame of the practice. Ending its existence, even at the great cost of a bloody and terrible war, was worth it.
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There are many forms of slavery and exploiting illegal immigrants is just one...we can argue about which is worse or which is best...but the fact that Slavery has existed for thousands of years and still exists today cannot be denied....thus when a economic model has existed that long then there is no need for its justification ...it exists thus it must have merit or it would not exist.

This stupidity of thinking that owning another person is somehow immoral has no basis.....The Holy Bible did not condemn slavery..in fact it encouraged servants to honor their masters.

Any successful society must have a division of labor....otherwise it will be dysfunctional which is becoming more apparant by the minute here in America as we continue to unravel at a ever increasing speed.

This stupidity propagated by liberals that all are equal resulted in the loss of our traditional servant class...which created such problems as illegal immigration, labor woes, federal interference with every level of our lives and most devastating to our industrial sector which fled overseas due to the Feds imposing control and regulations that made doing business in America more and more costly as well as more difficult...it did not take business owners long to figure out that they could make more money with fewer headaches by outsourcing work overseas to climates more hospitable to business people and industry.
 
SmilinJack said:
There are many forms of slavery and exploiting illegal immigrants is just one...we can argue about which is worse or which is best...but the fact that Slavery has existed for thousands of years and still exists today cannot be denied....thus when a economic model has existed that long then there is no need for its justification ...it exists thus it must have merit or it would not exist.

This stupidity of thinking that owning another person is somehow immoral has no basis.....The Holy Bible did not condemn slavery..in fact it encouraged servants to honor their masters.

Any successful society must have a division of labor....otherwise it will be dysfunctional which is becoming more apparant by the minute here in America as we continue to unravel at a ever increasing speed.

This stupidity propagated by liberals that all are equal resulted in the loss of our traditional servant class...which created such problems as illegal immigration, labor woes, federal interference with every level of our lives and most devastating to our industrial sector which fled overseas due to the Feds imposing control and regulations that made doing business in America more and more costly as well as more difficult...it did not take business owners long to figure out that they could make more money with fewer headaches by outsourcing work overseas to climates more hospitable to business people and industry.
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Wow you are just full of logical fallacies. Here's some actual logic. If each man, as our Declaration states, has an unalienable right to liberty, then that right has no restrictions based on color of ones skin or any other qualifier. This in and of itself made the Civil War just.

Economics as I said May have explained the existence of slavery, but it does nothing to justify it- no matter how many links you post to argue for your position of justification.

The Bible was written during a time when God interacted with man and his systems, slavery being one of them. Slavery was always viewed and discussed in the Bible, in terms of judgement, in other words, God never claims it is a good or positive condition.
 
All Men Are Not Equal--Never Have Been--Never Will Be

XLVIII DOMINATORS said:
Wow you are just full of logical fallacies. Here's some actual logic. If each man, as our Declaration states, has an unalienable right to liberty, then that right has no restrictions based on color of ones skin or any other qualifier. This in and of itself made the Civil War just.

Economics as I said May have explained the existence of slavery, but it does nothing to justify it- no matter how many links you post to argue for your position of justification.

The Bible was written during a time when God interacted with man and his systems, slavery being one of them. Slavery was always viewed and discussed in the Bible, in terms of judgement, in other words, God never claims it is a good or positive condition.
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The founding document of American liberty, the Declaration of Independence, was written by Thomas Jefferson, a man who owned slaves, about the creation of a nation that would sanction slaveholding. The most famous words from the Declaration of Independence are undoubtedly "that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." It is quite clear from the facts and actions spurred by these words and the battle undertaken in their defense that the men who drafted and adopted the Declaration of Independence did not have the idea of actual equality for all men in mind... and the term 'men' as used back then only referred to those owning property...meaning of course White Men.

The promise found in the Declaration of Independence that all men are created equal must today be viewed with the caveat that those who conferred the legitimacy of it were convinced that blacks as being not fully human held no claim to the same rights as whites and so there was no necessity to qualify the promise of universal equality within the document.


Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, and most of the members of the Continental Congress had historically expressed in no uncertain terms before it came to write a declaration for independence based on the radical concept that all men were created equal their belief that a righteous difference existed between the rights of whites and the rights of blacks. John Adams went so far as to write the God Himself has "never intended the American colonists 'for Negroes...and therefore never intended us for slaves".

The intention of the Declaration of Independence was to spur not blacks to fight for independence, liberty and equality, but for whites to fight for the suspension of the class rule that had dominated European civilization for centuries. Jefferson and the other founding fathers did not write or approve the Declaration as a means to give hope to slaves that the American Revolution was going to bring them freedom, or that it would endow freed blacks with anything even approaching equality. Jefferson's incitement of the proposition that all men are created equal was at the time sheer propaganda directed specifically toward white colonists whom the revolutionaries needed to buy the idea that business as usual in Europe for millennia was not the future of the coming new country.
 
So you acknowledge the profound blindness the Founders had of their own bigotry. As I already noted to another poster there no doubt existed a profound hypocrisy.

But yet again you offer only explanations of why and how slavery existed. We all already know this. You keep wanting explanations to be justifications-they just are not.

The Civil War, was a Just war, because it emancipated the slave. Amen!
 
full of logical fallacies. Here's some actual logic. If each man, as our Declaration states, has an unalienable right to liberty, then that right has no restrictions based on color of ones skin or any other qualifier. This in and of itself made the Civil War just.
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Same document references life in the same terms. 600,000+ were deprived of theirs. By your logic unjust.
But mainly unnecessary simply to end slavery. Every one else managed this. Lincoln believed blacks were inferior (textbook racist not merely biased). Clearly his aims had nothing to do with this.
 
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XLVIII DOMINATORS said:
So you acknowledge the profound blindness the Founders had of their own bigotry. As I already noted to another poster there no doubt existed a profound hypocrisy.

But yet again you offer only explanations of why and how slavery existed. We all already know this. You keep wanting explanations to be justifications-they just are not.

The Civil War, was a Just war, because it emancipated the slave. Amen!
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Your ignorance of slavery is rather profound......irregardless here is something for you and all those who think a war was required to end slavery.....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_New_York



Thus....a good example of how slavery could have ended elsewhere....and most likely would have....in a peaceful and gradual manner with no trauma ...just a gradual transition....but Mr. Lincoln in his illegal war of agression negated the possibility of Slavery being ended in a peaceful and orderly manner....he needed to issue his proclomation of emancipation for political reasons...you are probably even ignorant about that.

Anyone who wanted to justify slavery beyond the economic necessity of it at that time could easily do so by reading The Holy Bible and most Slaveowners were very religious.

Some Slaveholders indeed justified the practice by citing the Bible.

They asked who could question the Word of God when it said, "slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling" (Ephesians 6:5), or "tell slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect" (Titus 2:9).

http://www.ushistory.org/us/27f.asp
 
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First, my ignorance, takes second place only to yours.

There is absolutely NO evidence slavery in the South would have ended peacefully. The very fact that it took a war to end it and another 100 years of abuses towards black Americans lends to that being unlikely-

The practice of slavery deserved the rebellion and bloody war its very existence begged for.

BTW irregardless is not grammatically correct. You simply need to say regardless. Yes, its usage has become common, but it denotes a poor usage of the english language given its redundancy.
 
Celticguy said:
Same document references life in the same terms. 600,000+ were deprived of theirs. By your logic unjust.
But mainly unnecessary simply to end slavery. Every one else managed this. Lincoln believed blacks were inferior (textbook racist not merely biased). Clearly his aims had nothing to do with this.
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Is it moral to own another and deprive him of his liberty?

I will say it again. Whatever OTHER motives may have been at play during the Civil War, the end result being giving liberty to the slave, JUSTIFIED it!

So many libertarians I know talk about armed rebellion against the government over their money and guns. Yet you, and others like you, seemingly value the loss of life from a war that liberated an entire class of people? Liberated them so they could have the same Constitutional freedoms you have. My God listen to yourself!
 
When God said "slaves obey your masters" it was specific to the idea to find peace in all your circumstances. Yes slavery was practiced in biblical times, but it in no way resembled slavery as practiced in the US. God never condoned slavery. The common error people such as yourself attempt is to think Gods plan for man is societal change. It is not, it is for salvation. That said God was very clear about the practice of "man stealing", which was the practice that birthed the American slave.

Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death” (Exodus 21:16). Similarly, in the New Testament, slave-traders are listed among those who are “ungodly and sinful” and are in the same category as those who kill their fathers or mothers, murderers, adulterers and perverts, and liars and perjurers (1 Timothy 1:8-10).


Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-slavery.html#ixzz30QNSDRDA
 
Ok tangent ti morals then...
So in the moral environment of the day it was in flux. Enough for the rest of the world to find an easy way to accomplish ending it WITHOUT war. There was no need for war to end slavery so that DEJUSTIFIES it unless morals are insignificant.
Oh... and war ended nothing. A constitutional amendment years later did. Shoot even the Emancipation Proclamation freed zero slaves as it excluded the Union.

XLVIII DOMINATORS said:
Is it moral to own another and deprive him of his liberty?

I will say it again. Whatever OTHER motives may have been at play during the Civil War, the end result being giving liberty to the slave, JUSTIFIED it!

So many libertarians I know talk about armed rebellion against the government over their money and guns. Yet you, and others like you, seemingly value the loss of life from a war that liberated an entire class of people? Liberated them so they could have the same Constitutional freedoms you have. My God listen to yourself!
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