Cancel 2018. 3
<-- sched 2, MJ sched 1
why would any of you expect any different from MM? until he changes, put him on ignore. trust me...it works.
The Politics of Diversion!
- Thread starter Dixie - In Memoriam
- Start date
Making claims is NOT PROOF OF ANYTHING
I can find nothing about any PDB that mentioned Curveball....
and I certainly can't find anything about this alleged PDB being made public..
Lots of new items and books alleging many things...but no PDB, so....
If you have link, I'd be happy to see it.....
But some facts I did come across....
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/24/AR2006062401081_pf.html
in the fall of 2002, Curveball was living the life of an important spy. A Baghdad native whose real name has never been released, he was residing in a safe house in Germany, where he had requested asylum three years earlier. In return for immigration permits for himself and his family, the Iraqi supplied Germany's foreign intelligence service with what appeared to be a rare insider's account of one of President Saddam Hussein's long-rumored WMD programs.
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The German intelligence agency BND faithfully passed Curveball's stories to the Americans. Over time, the informant generated more than 100 intelligence reports on secret Iraqi weapons programs -- the only such reports from an informant claiming to have visited and worked in mobile labs. Other informants, also later discredited, had claimed indirect knowledge of mobile labs.
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Although no American had ever interviewed Curveball, analysts with the CIA's Center for Weapons Intelligence, Nonproliferation and Arms Control believed the informant's technical descriptions were too detailed to be fabrications.
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In January 2003, Agent Drumheller received a new request from CIA headquarters to contact the German intelligence service about Curveball. This time, Drumheller recalled, the U.S. spy agency had three questions:
Could a U.S. official refer to Curveball's mobile lab accounts in an upcoming political speech?
Could the Germans guarantee that Curveball would stand by his account?
Could German intelligence verify Curveball's claims?
The reply from Berlin, as Drumheller recalls it, was less than encouraging: There are no guarantees.
"They said, 'We have never been able to verify his claims,' " Drumheller recalled. "And that was all sent up to Tenet's office."
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In briefing Powell before his U.N. speech, George Tenet, then the CIA director, personally vouched for the accuracy of the mobile-lab claim, according to participants in the briefing.
Given that particular fact, did Powell lie....did Bush lie ?
Did they KNOW they were stating something false....???
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maineman
Banned
let's begin anew?
maineman
Banned
bullshit. I have never made any such suggestion. And I have PLENTY of ideas as to how we could help bring about positive change in the region... and have spent many years talking about those ideas on message boards with you... and having you dismiss every one of them. It is a testament to your bullheaded self absorbed arrogance - and ignorance - that you cannot recall those discussions now and have to make shit up as to what I have previously suggested.
Unless you're a left winger in which case it's all the "proof" you need ....
Buckley was absolutely correct when he said:
"Liberals [he means the left here not actual liberals that believe in antiquated concepts liker er..um.. individual liberty] claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views."
Unless you're a left winger in which case it's all the "proof" you need ....
Buckley was absolutely correct when he said:
"Liberals [he means the left here not actual liberals that believe in antiquated concepts liker er..um.. individual liberty] claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views."
That's silly.
A lie is a lie. Bush lied about Curveball, twice. It's documented.
Powell's aide said he was given a "chinese menu" of intel & told to make a case. British intelligence said the intel was being fixed around the policy. Wolfowicz said WMD's were "what we decided on" to sell the war, because they had already basically made the decision to go on.
How naive can you guys be? I prefer a President who bends over backwards looking for reasons NOT to go to war; not a guy who wants war for his legacy & is willing to cherrypick & lie to get there.
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
Well, the Constitution doesn't say it because the Declaration of Independence, which enabled a Constitution to be written, does say it. Not "Christian" but it does indicate we are endowed the rights we claim by our Creator. It becomes a "truth" that is "self-evident" so there is no further need to establish it in the Constitution.
And Maine... there are people here and now, who claim we are a Christian theocracy!
Okay... so if it's ba'athist extremists (which I doubt), then they won't have an Ayatolla, they'll have another murderous tyrant megalomaniac dictator, who rules with an iron fist.
One of the wonderful things about DEMOCRACY in Iraq, is the fact that MOST people of Iraq, are NOT members of the Ba'ath party, and after 30 years of brutal dictatorship, probably aren't likely to support another Ba'ath regime for a while. So, the Ba'athists will have to orchestrate a coup and overthrow the government, and have enough military capability to overcome the Iraq military. Somehow, that is a lot of "ifs" which need to happen, and I don't see it being what goes down. Now, radical Islamic groups like alQaeda, are a completely different matter, they indeed could, with the help of Iran and Syria, wage a formidable challenge to the Iraqi government. In either event, these are not reasonable alternatives to the type of democracy which has been established by the people of Iraq.
Well, that's why I said "apparently" ...it's what is sounds like to me. You want to play your cute little semantics games, and compare Iraq to Iran... it's like you have something against Islam. As for your ideas, you have nothing that hasn't been tried already, for many years, with no success. In fact, much of what you suggest, not only had no success, but made the situation considerably worse. Like the stubborn thick-headed liberal you are, you want to trot these ideas back out again, and try it with a little more tax money behind it this time. You're just so certain, that if we spend a little more tax money from the rich, we can fix all the problems of the world... it just takes a little more! Let's pour money into the coffers of radical extremist madmen, and treat them nicely, and they will gladly grant their people freedom and liberty, just like we have here.... I need some of what you smoke, Maine!
maineman
Banned
bullshit. either prove that statement or retract it. Put up a link to ONE POST from me where I suggested doing anything that had been tried for many years with no success. I'll wait.
maineman
Banned
Oh...and where exactly did you say "apparently"?
here is what you said:
No.... if it were up to you, we'd just continue to turn our backs on the problem, pretend it doesn't matter what we do, persist in our indifference, and exploitation of their resources. THAT has been your only suggestion for a solution, and it hasn't worked. It's precisely why we have the problems we have now in that region!
liar.
here is what you said:
No.... if it were up to you, we'd just continue to turn our backs on the problem, pretend it doesn't matter what we do, persist in our indifference, and exploitation of their resources. THAT has been your only suggestion for a solution, and it hasn't worked. It's precisely why we have the problems we have now in that region!
liar.
Er...um... well perhaps you missed the tongue and cheek I was I going for (my fault) however in a general sense the portion of the Bravo's post I replied to and my reply is pretty much my perception (well I should have said "the extreme left wing") of the current state of affairs.
Now if you would like to change the subject (from what I posted) to whether President Bush "lied" or not, honestly I couldn't say if President Bush lied, was misled, or just didn't understand what he was being told. I'm no fan of President George W. Bush but I do respect the fact the he took on a job that I wouldn't want and I will assume that he did the best that he was capable of with it. While I am extremely disappointed in his performance, I have no seething hatred of the man (like many on the left seem to carry around) and I do think he deserves the respect of his fellow citizens for giving his best attempt at public service (even if he did screw up on more occassions than I care to list), after all he did do some things right.
Fair enough; I misinterpreted your intent.
I don't hate Bush, either, or anyone. I just wish he hadn't been President.
LOL, no worries, that would be my fault since the onus of communication is on the communicator not the communicatee
That's cool, personally I don't have any issues with the fact that he was the President (although I did think the 2000 election was a national embarrassment at the time and as they say "shit happens") however I must admit that given the fact that once the Democrats seized control they appear to have gone stark, raving spend crazy (pent up anger?) since he left office, I kinda wish he was back now. I mean he was never any fiscal conservative or anything but compared to what's going on right now, he looks like Ebenezer Scrooge by comparison.
Yelling "its a lie" and claiming 'Its documented" doesn't constitute proof....
This is documented from Washington Post, no blogs, no book claims
In January 2003, Agent Drumheller received a new request from CIA headquarters to contact the German intelligence service about Curveball. This time, Drumheller recalled, the U.S. spy agency had three questions:
Could a U.S. official refer to Curveball's mobile lab accounts in an upcoming political speech?
Could the Germans guarantee that Curveball would stand by his account?
Could German intelligence verify Curveball's claims?
The reply from Berlin, as Drumheller recalls it, was less than encouraging: There are no guarantees.
"They said, 'We have never been able to verify his claims,' " Drumheller recalled. "And that was all sent up to Tenet's office."
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In briefing Powell before his U.N. speech, George Tenet, then the CIA director, personally vouched for the accuracy of the mobile-lab claim, according to participants in the briefing.
Tenets vouching for the truthfullness of this mobile-lab is documented...you remember the "slam dunk" claim.....
Given that particular fact, both Powell and Bush were assured that this particular claim was fact, as vouched for by the Director of the CIA....
I realized its wasn't the truth but thats irrelevant....they believed it was the truth...they believed Tenet was telling them the truth....if you want to claim Tenet was lying thats another thing altogether...
If I tell you something false and you repeat it not knowing its false....who is the liar, me or you ??? You and moronman can't seen to grasp this simple fact...
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Your other claims have nothing to do with the issue we are debating...and prove nothing...
Powell's aide said he was given a "chinese menu" of intel
That may be, so what
British intelligence said the intel was being fixed around the policy.
Maybe the Brits thought that, so what
Wolfowicz said WMD's were "what we decided on" to sell the war, because they had already basically made the decision to go on.
And maybe Wolfowicz did decide to sell the war on WMD, that makes sense because everyone believed Iraq did have WMD
and the because partsounds more like your opinion...
I heard those claims and plenty more besides....accusations remain accusations until the claims are verified by independent witnesses or facts, not just more accusations....
AND...you will note that I defend The Clinton Admin. in their claims about Saddam and WMD....with the vigor as I defend Bush....
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
You're right, I didn't say "apparently" I said "it seems like" ...same difference.
Okay, fair enough, MM... you disagree with what I said, so here is your chance to lay out what your plan would be, to change the radical fundamentalist nature of the middle east. Let's hear it! And.... please don't tell me anything about "diplomacy" because that had been tried for 50 years, and didn't work... don't tell me anything about "economic sanctions" because that too had failed... and we obviously know these changes can't happen at the end of a gun barrel.... so, fire away Maine! Let's hear your great plan for quelling radical Islam and bringing lasting peace to the region! I'm all ears!
All I have ever heard articulated from you, or anyone on the left, is to abandon the cause altogether, or try to pay off dictators. Neither of these are acceptable solutions to the problem....and yes, it is a problem that concerns America.
maineman
Banned
again, I say bullshit. If you are going to make these statements about what you claim to have heard from me, either prove them or retract them.
and you still avoided my question about the constitution....typical.
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
Well there you have it folks... Maineman's Solution to Radical Islam!
....DIVERT DIVERT DIVERT!
....DIVERT DIVERT DIVERT!
Don't even tell me that it took you umpteen thousand posts to arrive at this most obvious of conclusions? really be honest , otherwise one might think it was nothing more than a moron on moron battle that convinced you of the fuckin' obvious.
In case you hadn't noticed arguing with a blindly partisan leftie is like cutting your own foot off, the process involved in making the decision takes a long time but there's inevitability SEVERE pain at the end ....
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
I've already addressed it. Our Constitution doesn't articulate the advocacy of a particular religion, the Declaration of Independence establishes that we are forming a nation based on the principle that All Men are Created Equal, and endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights... that is the basis for our founding, and why there was a Constitution written. Some people do indeed think this makes us a theocracy, but it doesn't.
A theocracy is a form of government in which God or a deity is recognized as the supreme civil ruler, the God's or deity's laws being interpreted by the ecclesiastical authorities. That is not the case with Iraq, it is not a theocracy. They have an elected representative body, a president, a prime minister, and various other elected officials, chosen by the people of Iraq in free and open democratic elections. They have adopted and ratified a Constitution, again, by the will of the people in Iraq, not the Church or a Deity. Yes, they do base their laws on Islam, just as many of our laws are based on Judeo-Christian principles. Yes, the wording of their particular Constitution makes the connection to religion a little more profoundly than our own, but that is to be expected in a devoutly religious area of the world. If our Founding Fathers could have imagined some of the deplorable immorality our future generations would have thrust upon them, perhaps they would have included such a line in our Constitution as well. In any event, what you posted, doesn't make Iraq a theocratic government.
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
Don't even tell me that it took you umpteen thousand posts to arrive at this most obvious of conclusions? really be honest , otherwise one might think it was nothing more than a moron on moron battle that convinced you of the fuckin' obvious.
In case you hadn't noticed arguing with a blindly partisan leftie is like cutting your own foot off, the process involved in making the decision takes a long time but there's inevitability SEVERE pain at the end ....
Read the thread title! Nope... didn't take me any posts to determine this. I knew it all along. That was the sole purpose of posting this thread, to point it out! Let's see.... we've talked about Bush... Bush Conspiracy Theories... 9/11... Monica Lewenski... Bill Clinton... The Iraq War... Radical Islam... the Constitution... but no one is talking much about how Democrat Liberals consistently want to play this distraction game in politics.
I happen to think this was one of my most brilliant threads ever. It makes a point, then the liberals come out of the woodwork to illustrate the point better than I ever could do it by myself! It takes a great deal of brain power to come up with these things, not any mere mortal can do it... me and maybe Rush... that's about it. This is why I am a Living Legend, you know?
Dude no offense but you need to STFU now since if you believe in the rule of law your are detracting from it's cause (*pst the Declaration of Indenpendence doesn't have anything to do with our rule of law.. period.. not even in question .....our CONSTITUTION embodies the rule of law, the DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE was our declartion of war on Britian 200+ years ago ) stop fuckin' trying to conflate the two documents since such attempts just embarrasse all the conservatives that might otherwise agree with you.
Argueing otherwise invaldates whatever else you have to say as pure nonsense.