The Russian Bear Unleashed

this is the no spin zone you can't distort things that are lies to make them seem true.

And what exactly are you referring to?

Are there not Russian troops occupying Abkhazia and South Ossetia tonight?

Did the Russians not bomb Tbilisi?

Have they not ravaged the Georgian military?

If anyone is spinning here, I would submit it is you.
 
And what exactly are you referring to?

Are there not Russian troops occupying Abkhazia and South Ossetia tonight?

Did the Russians not bomb Tbilisi?

Have they not ravaged the Georgian military?

If anyone is spinning here, I would submit it is you.

I agree. Our media is underplaying this, probably because Obama has yet to see the perils of.
 
And let's not forget the Russian troops now occupying Abkhazia; which Georgia has also lost defacto control over.

One can hardly say that the end result is nothing more than a revision to the pre-invasion status quo. Georgian villages have been ravaged and burnt, the military mauled and its capital and major airport bombed.

Furthermore, where there was once concern and unease about the intentions and willingness of the Bear to exercise force among its former republics, there is now very real and justified fear.


Maybe you guys missed the "from a territorial perspective" qualifier. Here it is again for you:

Actually, this is a return to the statue quo ante from a territorial perspective. Russia gained nothing and Georgia lost nothing. And Russian peacekeepers were present in the separatist states before this conflict.


The above is accurate. And the two separatist states were already closely aligned with Moscow prior to the conflict. Not much has changed in that calculus either.

And there is fear among whom? Let's not forget who started this conflict. Georgia's knuckle-headed president. Certainly the Russians escalated the conflict, but I don't there was much doubt among expertsthat Russia would do so if provoked. The only question was what the US/NATO response would be. And we got that answer as well.

If Russia really wanted to it could have overrun Georgia without much effort and replaced the government. It didn't.

Pretending this is some huge world-shaking conflict and making Hitler analogies or claiming its the first step towards Russia re-establishing the Russian Empire or USSR are wildly off base.

It sucks for the people of Georgia, but beyond that the events are not earth-shaking by any means.
 
And let's not forget the Russian troops now occupying Abkhazia; which Georgia has also lost defacto control over.

One can hardly say that the end result is nothing more than a revision to the pre-invasion status quo. Georgian villages have been ravaged and burnt, the military mauled and its capital and major airport bombed.

Furthermore, where there was once concern and unease about the intentions and willingness of the Bear to exercise force among its former republics, there is now very real and justified fear.

George F. Kennan: "Russia can have at its borders only enemies or vassals."
 
Maybe you guys missed the "from a territorial perspective" qualifier. Here it is again for you:




The above is accurate. And the two separatist states were already closely aligned with Moscow prior to the conflict. Not much has changed in that calculus either.

And there is fear among whom? Let's not forget who started this conflict. Georgia's knuckle-headed president. Certainly the Russians escalated the conflict, but I don't there was much doubt among expertsthat Russia would do so if provoked. The only question was what the US/NATO response would be. And we got that answer as well.

If Russia really wanted to it could have overrun Georgia without much effort and replaced the government. It didn't.

Pretending this is some huge world-shaking conflict and making Hitler analogies or claiming its the first step towards Russia re-establishing the Russian Empire or USSR are wildly off base.

It sucks for the people of Georgia, but beyond that the events are not earth-shaking by any means.
Well except for the Ukraine will be next. But what the heh?
 
Well except for the Ukraine will be next. But what the heh?


Ukraine will be next what? The next country that Russia doesn't take over even though it has the capacity and ability to do so without much effort.

Please explain yourself here. Also, Henny Penny, please explain what you propose to do about it.
 
Ukraine will be next what? The next country that Russia doesn't take over even though it has the capacity and ability to do so without much effort.

Please explain yourself here. Also, Henny Penny, please explain what you propose to do about it.

You might want to reconsider your position on Ukraine.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=ayrpPV6nJ4Qk&refer=worldwide

And as for those who now fear Mother Russia, I would refer you to the presidents of members of the Commonwealth of Independent States that appeared with Georgian President Saakashvili yesterday and stated as much.
 
You might want to reconsider your position on Ukraine.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=ayrpPV6nJ4Qk&refer=worldwide

And as for those who now fear Mother Russia, I would refer you to the presidents of members of the Commonwealth of Independent States that appeared with Georgian President Saakashvili yesterday and stated as much.


The article says that Russia opposes the Ukraine joining NATO. This is news to you? Russia will use the opportunity of one of the two countries being considered for NATO membership instigating a war with Russia and being summarily crushed while NATO members watched as leverage against the other? Wow. I am shocked by this development.

This is truly shocking as hell.
 
Reading this thread, I have the very disturbing feeling that there are many Americans who miss the days of the so-called Evil Empire, and who want to go back to the, I guess what they view as simple times of, good vs evil. I personally can’t help but view these people as having empty lives and needing the drama of The Big Good United States, drawing lines in the sand against The Big Bad Soviet Union.

Of course, some of us might ask, yeah, you and whose army? But then, those are just girly men. Where’s my fanny pack?
 
And let's not forget the Russian troops now occupying Abkhazia; which Georgia has also lost defacto control over.

One can hardly say that the end result is nothing more than a revision to the pre-invasion status quo. Georgian villages have been ravaged and burnt, the military mauled and its capital and major airport bombed.

Furthermore, where there was once concern and unease about the intentions and willingness of the Bear to exercise force among its former republics, there is now very real and justified fear.

You missed one small seemingly insignificant point .. THE GEORGIANS STARTED THIS CONFLICT.

The notion that the Russians would allow the US to go unchallenged in the region and would not exert pressure/force on their former republics is as infantile a notion as US troops would be greeted with flowers and candy when we entered Iraq. Come to think of it .. the same infantile minds conjured up both ridiculous notions.

AND .. because of the infantile minds that dreamed up the invasion of Iraq .. AND Afghanistan .. the US is in no position to tell the Russians a damn thing and in ZERO position to do anything about it.

.. infantile monds .. all dressed up as cowboys.
 
You missed one small seemingly insignificant point .. THE GEORGIANS STARTED THIS CONFLICT.

The notion that the Russians would allow the US to go unchallenged in the region and would not exert pressure/force on their former republics is as infantile a notion as US troops would be greeted with flowers and candy when we entered Iraq. Come to think of it .. the same infantile minds conjured up both ridiculous notions.

AND .. because of the infantile minds that dreamed up the invasion of Iraq .. AND Afghanistan .. the US is in no position to tell the Russians a damn thing and in ZERO position to do anything about it.

.. infantile monds .. all dressed up as cowboys.

That may be, however, Russia’s response was disproportionate, brutal, and murderous, and there is no excuse for it.
Though I agree we are not in the position to scold them over it. Not with the blood of hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi’s on our hands.
 
I agree. Our media is underplaying this, probably because Obama has yet to see the perils of.

Obama, quite unfortunately, is following in the same footsteps of the right and is playing follow the leader with John McCain.

The peril that America should be worried about is the Shanghai Cooperative Organization which will rival and perhaps overshadow NATO.

Talking like a cowboy isn't going to help.
 
Reading this thread, I have the very disturbing feeling that there are many Americans who miss the days of the so-called Evil Empire, and who want to go back to the, I guess what they view as simple times of, good vs evil. I personally can’t help but view these people as having empty lives and needing the drama of The Big Good United States, drawing lines in the sand against The Big Bad Soviet Union.

Of course, some of us might ask, yeah, you and whose army? But then, those are just girly men. Where’s my fanny pack?


I suspect most of them have Red Dawn fantasies they're trying to relive.
 
Obama, quite unfortunately, is following in the same footsteps of the right and is playing follow the leader with John McCain.

The peril that America should be worried about is the Shanghai Cooperative Organization which will rival and perhaps overshadow NATO.

Talking like a cowboy isn't going to help.


Your equivocation of the two candidates is getting tiresome. Obama isn't out claiming that "we are all citizens of Georgia" and isn't insisting on Georgia being fast-tracked into NATO so we can start some real fighting.

I suppose they're the same in that they both condemned the disproportionate response of Russia, but that's about it.
 
That may be, however, Russia’s response was disproportionate, brutal, and murderous, and there is no excuse for it.
Though I agree we are not in the position to scold them over it. Not with the blood of hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi’s on our hands.

That is the point my sister.

American exceptionalism and the belief that we could do any damn thing we want to whom, ever we want .. as long as they can't really fight back .. is what led us to slaughter and mass-murder hundreds of thousands of innocent people for profit. I say good riddance to that bullshit.

It has also led us to believe that we could do things that other nations cannot .. like put ABM weapons in their backyard.

And it cannot be ignored that even with as brutal a response as the Russians engaged in, Georgians started this conflict when they didn't have to .. AND were warned not to.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/washington/13diplo.html?ref=europe

Some of that blood is on the hands of the Georgian President.
 
Your equivocation of the two candidates is getting tiresome. Obama isn't out claiming that "we are all citizens of Georgia" and isn't insisting on Georgia being fast-tracked into NATO so we can start some real fighting.

I suppose they're the same in that they both condemned the disproportionate response of Russia, but that's about it.

I apologize if critque is seems strange to you in a political forum, or if my thoughts interrupt your euphoria for Obama .. however, just as Karl Rove was Bush's brain, on foreign policy, Zbigniew Brzezinski is Obama's brain.

I apologize if you don't know that my brother.

I also apologize if you didn't recognize how Obama's stance on the conflict changed after McCain made his statement.

Obama Turns More Hawkish On Georgia Conflict

I have to say I think Obama has shot himself in the foot with his revised statement on the conflict yesterday.

Chicago, IL -- "I just spoke separately with Secretary Rice and President Saakashvili about the grave crisis in Georgia. I told President Saakashvili that I was deeply concerned about the well-being of the people of Georgia.

"Over the last two days, Russia has escalated the crisis in Georgia through it's clear and continued violation of Georgia's sovereignty and territorial integrity. On Friday, August 8, Russian military forces invaded Georgia. I condemn Russia's aggressive actions and reiterate my call for an immediate ceasefire. Russia must stop its bombing campaign, cease flights of Russian aircraft in Georgian airspace, and withdraw its ground forces from Georgia. Both sides should allow humanitarian assistance to reach civilians in need. Russia also must end its cyber war against Georgian government websites. Georgia's territorial integrity must be respected.

"As I have said for many months, aggressive diplomatic action must be taken to reach a political resolution to this crisis, and to assure that Georgia's sovereignty is protected. Diplomats at the highest levels from the United States, the European Union, and the United Nations must become directly involved in mediating this military conflict and beginning a process to resolve the political disputes over the territories of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. A genuinely neutral mediator - not the Russian government - must begin a process of negotiations immediately.

"The situation in Georgia also requires the deployment of genuine international peacekeeping forces in South Ossetia and Abkhazia. The current escalation of military conflict resulted in part from the lack of a neutral and effective peacekeeping force operating under an appropriate UN mandate. Russia cannot play a constructive role as peacekeeper. Instead, Russian actions in both South Ossetia and Abkhazia appear to be intended to preserve an unstable status quo."

The statement contains more condemnation of Russian aggression against Georgia, and its trespassing on Georgian sovereignty, than Obama's first well-balanced statement. It's playing right into McCain's camp, as Obama is obviously moving towards the hawkish anti-Russian rhetoric emanating from there.

There's no apparent mention of Georgia actually, you know, starting the thing by sending its entire army into an unstable area which doesn't want to be Georgian sovereign territory in the first place and in which Russia had an internationally-recognised and CIS-mandated duty as a protector of the local's lives and liberty. No mention that Georgia, a CIS member, violated its own obligations to the CIS brokered deal over South Ossetia. But at least Obama's correct that Russia can no longer continue that role. It's just not a neutral enough actor and never was - which didn't stop anyone approving said role before now.

No mention either that a senior State Dept. official was in Georgia just last week or that the US actually has a small permanent military base in Georgia - a tripwire pretty much guaranteed to ensure that Russia doesn't try to annex georgia proper, even if it really wanted to - and so the Bush administration must have known which way Saakashvili intended to jump and seems to have done diddly-squat to dissuade him.

It looks, at first glance, like Obama's been listening too hard to old Cold Warriors like Zbigniew Brzezinski, who wants to compare Putin to Stalin and Hitler. (Is it required by American hawks that any foreign leader they don't like be compared to Stalin and Hitler?) Brzezinski also backed McCain's call to throw Russia out of the G8, saying the G8 Group is "an impotent fiction anyway", and included a call to add Georgia to the NATO membership action plan forthwith - so that the West is obligated to get militarily involved next time out too!

Yet another disappointing move by triangulating Obama. "Change you can believe in" shouldn't include swapping the last set of hawks for the previous ones, but apparently it does - and it also includes playing to decades old American fear of the Soviet/Russian "menace". I can console myself with the thought that Clinton would have been even more hawkish and McCain is dreadfully warlike in comparison still, but it doesn't really give me a warm-fuzzy about the elections.
http://www.newshoggers.com/blog/2008/08/obama-turns-mor.html

Sorry if you didn't know any of that.
 
Obama, quite unfortunately, is following in the same footsteps of the right and is playing follow the leader with John McCain.

The peril that America should be worried about is the Shanghai Cooperative Organization which will rival and perhaps overshadow NATO.

Talking like a cowboy isn't going to help.

I completely agree with your concerns over the SCO.

The organization has an increasingly anti-Western lean to it and is the basis for greater Russian-Chinese military cooperation.

While some may feel it is longing for the halcyon days of the Evil Empire and the Cold War, I believe the pairing of Russian natural resources and arms with Chinese industrial capacity and economic prowess is a potentially greater threat than the Soviet Union ever posed.

When taken in combination with America's relative economic decline and future critical decisions between butter and guns, the stage is set to the advantage of a rising China and a Russia looking for lost dreams of grandeur.
 
Your equivocation of the two candidates is getting tiresome. Obama isn't out claiming that "we are all citizens of Georgia" and isn't insisting on Georgia being fast-tracked into NATO so we can start some real fighting.

I suppose they're the same in that they both condemned the disproportionate response of Russia, but that's about it.


Fuck it BAC. You're right, I'm wrong. I just came across this, which is profoundly disturbing and just plain stupid:

"Going forward, the United States and Europe must support the people of Georgia. Beyond immediate humanitarian assistance, we must provide economic assistance, and help rebuild what has been destroyed. I have consistently called for deepening relations between Georgia and transatlantic institutions, including a Membership Action Plan for NATO, and we must continue to press for that deeper relationship."


I hope he doesn't really mean it, but even as pure political posturing this doesn't make any sense. I haven't seen any polling on the issue, but I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of the American people would oppose going to war with Russia to defend Georgia.
 
Fuck it BAC. You're right, I'm wrong. I just came across this, which is profoundly disturbing and just plain stupid:




I hope he doesn't really mean it, but even as pure political posturing this doesn't make any sense. I haven't seen any polling on the issue, but I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of the American people would oppose going to war with Russia to defend Georgia.

I think that bac is right and it's that frigging Brzezinski.
 
I completely agree with your concerns over the SCO.

The organization has an increasingly anti-Western lean to it and is the basis for greater Russian-Chinese military cooperation.

While some may feel it is longing for the halcyon days of the Evil Empire and the Cold War, I believe the pairing of Russian natural resources and arms with Chinese industrial capacity and economic prowess is a potentially greater threat than the Soviet Union ever posed.

When taken in combination with America's relative economic decline and future critical decisions between butter and guns, the stage is set to the advantage of a rising China and a Russia looking for lost dreams of grandeur.

That is absolutely right on point my brother.

Just the economic advantage alone is imposing even without considering the military .. and given the prudent disposition of european nations, their loyalties to the west will always be suspect. Europe will be caught between the crosshairs, dependent on Russia and the SCO for resources.

Imagine what would happen if Arab/muslim nations joined the SCO?

Pakistan and Iran already have observer status .. and Iraq won't be far behind.

Venezula wants to join.

Cuba is thinking about it.

We're off chasing ghosts/terrorists .. while the rest of the world is reforming.
 
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