The Silent Slaughter of the Flower of Ukraine’s Youth | Common Dreams

Tranquillus in Exile said:
Tinkerpeach said:
The only way for this to end is for Ukraine to capitulate
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Then the "silent slaughter" could be done systematically. And it would be.
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First of all, what evidence do you have of this? Secondly, the word "capitulate" is rather ambiguous. Would you consider Ukraine to be capitulating if they were to agree to a ceasefire?

Tranquillus in Exile said:
Putin has convinced many of his subjects, and even some people on these forums, that Ukraine is full of nazis. They would expect ACTION.
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Ever since Euromaidan, there has certainly been a strong Neo Nazi faction involved in politics and the Ukrainian military. Note the "Neo" part. The Neo Nazis in Ukraine are a lot more tolerant of jews then the original Nazis, and are instead have a lot more fear and hatred of Russians. Zelensky was well aware of this back when he was still just a Comedian. He gave quite a succinct explanation of Ukraine's state of affairs in one of his skits from that time. I made a thread about this back in February. You even responded to it, though your response was focused on an article I referenced at the end of the opening post from Aaron Mate, not on the article that I quoted extensively in the same post. It's here if you'd like to review:

Ukrainien President Zelensky more honest as a comedian | justplainpolitics.com
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Phoenyx said:
I think they might want it because they've already gotten most of the land they wanted. I suspect they also know that simply "winning" without a diplomatic truce may well lead to the types of results that they and the U.S. got in places like Afghanistan.

On the other side of the equation, it looks like the collective west is finally beginning to realize that Ukraine isn't going to get anywhere fast with its counteroffensive. Here's an article that gets into that, published on Monday:

Foreign Policy Blob Starts To Admit A Ukraine Ceasefire Is Inevitable | thefederalist.com
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Russia intends to take much more of Ukraine, and this is not over till Ukraine agrees to be neutral and largely demilitarized.
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You may well be right that Russia intends to take much more of Ukraine, but I believe this may be in large part because of the fact that Ukraine is still fighting hard to regain the land that Russia now has under its control. I imagine the fact that Zelensky is still going on about retaking the Donbass region and Crimea doesn't help matters either.

If Zelensky (or whoever replaces him if he is ousted) were to agree to a temporary ceasefire, followed by some sincere negotiations, I think that Russia might be willing to essentially let Ukraine keep what it hasn't taken already if Zelensky were to promise to not try to join NATO (so a bit of that neutrality you mention) and recognize the new borders.
 
Phoenyx said:
You may well be right that Russia intends to take much more of Ukraine, but I believe this may be in large part because of the fact that Ukraine is still fighting hard to regain the land that Russia now has under its control. I imagine the fact that Zelensky is still going on about retaking the Donbass region and Crimea doesn't help matters either.

If Zelensky (or whoever replaces him if he is ousted) were to agree to a temporary ceasefire, followed by some sincere negotiations, I think that Russia might be willing to essentially let Ukraine keep what it hasn't taken already if Zelensky were to promise to not try to join NATO (so a bit of that neutrality you mention) and recognize the new borders.
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Russia is not going to agree to any ceasefire, they have been betrayed by the dishonest West too many times...they are done with that game where they get fucked over by lowlifes.
 
When Ukraine does what Ukraine must do (agree to be neutral and largely disarmed) then this stops, not until then.
 
Ukraine was destroyed for nothing, this is just like Iraq.

This is mostly Americas fault, though the Ukrainians are morons.
 
Phoenyx said:
First of all, what evidence do you have of this? Secondly, the word "capitulate" is rather ambiguous. Would you consider Ukraine to be capitulating if they were to agree to a ceasefire?
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Considering how the Russian military behaved in parts of Ukraine that it briefly took over last year, I don’t think a signed confession is necessary. But we may yet see -
if Ukraine capitulates.

I didn't use that word, Tinkerpeach did. It means give up all resistance; surrender.

Ever since Euromaidan, there has certainly been a strong Neo Nazi faction involved in politics and the Ukrainian military.
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This is the extent of neo-nazi influence in Ukrainian politics. The Svoboda Party, which has been called neo-nazi, has one member of parliament. He is not in the government.

Regarding neo-nazism in the Ukrainian military, this was one of the reasons Putin gave for the invasion. I suggest it should be treated with a degree of skepticism.
Some of the Russian activists who organized the takeover of Ukrainian oblasts in 2014 - with Putin's approval and backing - were ultra-nationalists who could fairly
be called neo-nazis. That didn’t bother Putin.
 

There was never any chance, there is no way this ends without the Ukrainians sure that we are either complete liars or complete incompetents. Either way China is the future. China Wins
 
Hawkeye10 said:
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Great video.

Hawkeye10 said:
There was never any chance, there is no way this ends without the Ukrainians sure that we are either complete liars or complete incompetents. Either way China is the future. China Wins
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I think perhaps the more important thing to think about is, chance for what? I think there was a chance that Ukraine could have avoided losing just about all the territory they've lost since the Russian war started if they'd just finalized the peace agreement they'd almost agreed to around a month after Russia started its military operation (for those who don't know about it: The Lost Promise of Peace in Ukraine | progressive.org )

At this point, I'd say their best bet is to start looking hard for a ceasefire. It's certainly possible that Russia might not go for it, but at least they'd be acknowledging what's become obvious to anyone who's paying attention, which is that they have no chance of breaching Russia's defensive positions, while Russia's odds of breaching more of Ukraine's positions grows by the day.
 
Phoenyx said:
Great video.



I think perhaps the more important thing to think about is, chance for what? I think there was a chance that Ukraine could have avoided losing just about all the territory they've lost since the Russian war started if they'd just finalized the peace agreement they'd almost agreed to around a month after Russia started its military operation (for those who don't know about it: The Lost Promise of Peace in Ukraine | progressive.org )

At this point, I'd say their best bet is to start looking hard for a ceasefire. It's certainly possible that Russia might not go for it, but at least they'd be acknowledging what's become obvious to anyone who's paying attention, which is that they have no chance of breaching Russia's defensive positions, while Russia's odds of breaching more of Ukraine's positions grows by the day.
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The Russians have no interest in a ceasefire, and the West is all out of credibility or moral stature with which to demand one.
 
Ukraine will if it continues to exist, they will do what they must do, the Russians have been very clear on what must happen.....then we can move on from this latest American catastrophic pointless war.

There is a new Sheriff in town.....this shit is over.
 
All big wars wreak havoc on the species, and up to now, the species gradually recovers.

Some day we'll pass the tipping point and the species will not recover.

If nothing else, extinct species don't have wars.

That, perhaps, is the most comforting thing to which we may look forward.

Extinction is eternal peace.
 
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