the smell of capitalism

Nomadic tribes would exchange goods with each other, there was no concept of taxes or regulations. I am sure that in a few some strongman of some title may have forbidden this or that, but if they didn't care then you had a free market.

The earliest official restrictions on free trade I've read in Britain were about 700 years ago with the king imposing duty on French cloth. I don't remember reading anything before that. Certainly in Saxon times I really doubt anything existed.
Not true, the tribesmen's leaders had control over what you produced or traded. Next example?

Before your restriction people who owned land with a bridge would charge a "tax" to move your stuff over their bridge, taking much of what you produced as well as limiting what products could cross over, if it competed with what they produced. Also not a "free" market.

There has never been any time where there has been a "free market". And if nomadic tribes are your best hope for an example then I don't want to live anywhere near a "free market". I do, but not if I have to go back to sand fleas and subsistence farming.
 
You're not going to win this Dano.

The 1800s state-sponsored Robber Baron version of capitalism was not a free market in any respect.
 
Of course they are, a free market must involve a free labor market and not just goods/services.

There have been completely free markets in the past, it's only recently in the last few hundred years of human life that it has not been.

If you go back that far, you're talking about feudalism.
 
Nomadic tribes would exchange goods with each other, there was no concept of taxes or regulations. I am sure that in a few some strongman of some title may have forbidden this or that, but if they didn't care then you had a free market.

The earliest official restrictions on free trade I've read in Britain were about 700 years ago with the king imposing duty on French cloth. I don't remember reading anything before that. Certainly in Saxon times I really doubt anything existed.


Yikes!

If hunter-gatherer and nomadic societies are your best examples of true free markets, I'd like to stick with modern regulated capitalism.
 
Yikes!

If hunter-gatherer and nomadic societies are your best examples of true free markets, I'd like to stick with modern regulated capitalism.
They are also examples of societies that did not have any restrictions on abortion, does that mean you want to stick with abortion being illegal?

We are only comparing one aspect here, the freedom of markets. Obviously life in OTHER respects, like lack of technology and so on would be inferior.

The point to get out of this is that tribes or societies back then that had freer trade, prospered more than tribes or societies back then that did not.
Just like countries TODAY that allow more free trade are better off than countries TODAY that do not.

This is the same bullshit I hear from leftists over how going back to limited government means abandoning technology and introducing sweatshops. All you are doing is granting more freedom, why on earth would anyone use that freedom to go back in time to previous lifestyles? They wouldn't.
 
You're not going to win this Dano.

The 1800s state-sponsored Robber Baron version of capitalism was not a free market in any respect.
???
Never said it was, I stated that you'd have to go back hundreds of years to find examples of completely free trade.
 
Who on earth thinks we did not do better with more free trade with NAFTA? The 90's was a huge boom and unemployment went down.
The closer we get to completely free trade, the better.
 
Who on earth thinks we did not do better with more free trade with NAFTA? The 90's was a huge boom and unemployment went down.
The closer we get to completely free trade, the better.
We still feel the negative impacts of NAFTA. It is NOT free trade.
 
There are examples of free trade going back 40,000 years at least, albeit in barter form of course. In the eastern parts of Australia trading between various aboriginal tribes was very common. The evidence lies in the way that various language groups are and were dispersed in various parts of eastern Australia. The boundaries for language groups are quite fluid and commonalities in language are found dispersed over very wide areas. This can be contrasted with the various language groups in the arid parts of central Australia and in modern Western Australia, where nomadic groups wandered across huge swathes of the landmass to eke out a subsistence living and where language groups rarely, if ever, interacted with each other.
 
There are examples of free trade going back 40,000 years at least, albeit in barter form of course. In the eastern parts of Australia trading between various aboriginal tribes was very common. The evidence lies in the way that various language groups are and were dispersed in various parts of eastern Australia. The boundaries for language groups are quite fluid and commonalities in language are found dispersed over very wide areas. This can be contrasted with the various language groups in the arid parts of central Australia and in modern Western Australia, where nomadic groups wandered across huge swathes of the landmass to eke out a subsistence living and where language groups rarely, if ever, interacted with each other.

And no restrictions by tribal "chief" or taxes on trades, etc ?
Not saying it isn't so , but find it hard to believe there was no controlling power getting a piece of the action.
 
And no restrictions by tribal "chief" or taxes on trades, etc ?
Not saying it isn't so , but find it hard to believe there was no controlling power getting a piece of the action.

I don't know enough about it to really give an infomed opinion. I do know that tribal groups were run by a collective of elders and not a single leader. No taxes or other charges because the idea of individual property wasn't known. What was traded was what was offered by the tribe and what was accepted was what was needed by the tribe. In traditional aboriginal society even the tools for survival (spears, digging tools, woomeras, boomerangs etc) were collectively owned and not owned by an individual.

I think the idea of the "free market" is a myth anyway. I think it can be ascribed to Adam Smith, who would be appalled if he saw what was happening in the name of "free trade" today. My meagre understanding tells me that Smith was arguing against mercantilism and looking to the idea of "individual enlightened self-interest", the butcher, the baker, the candlestick maker, to trade freely. I think now there is no free trade, no free market, everything is controlled by corporations and cartels.

Sorry, I was getting rant-worthy.

As I was saying, I would think that in aboriginal society back then that the bartering process would have been controlled by the elder group. Traditional aboriginal society doesn't have a history of single authority figures in a tribe, even today in traditional communities, it's usually a collective of elders (all men) who sit down and sort things out. In my work some years ago I had to travel to an isolated traditional community and speak with an elders council. I was told by a European (ie white) advisor that everything was done on a communal basis. There are no single, heroic figures in aboriginal society such as there were in First Nations/Native American societies in North America. There is one legendary aboriginal figure, Bennelong, who is still known and acknowledged, but that's primarily because of his assitance to the colonists in 1788.
 
There are examples of free trade going back 40,000 years at least, albeit in barter form of course. In the eastern parts of Australia trading between various aboriginal tribes was very common. The evidence lies in the way that various language groups are and were dispersed in various parts of eastern Australia. The boundaries for language groups are quite fluid and commonalities in language are found dispersed over very wide areas. This can be contrasted with the various language groups in the arid parts of central Australia and in modern Western Australia, where nomadic groups wandered across huge swathes of the landmass to eke out a subsistence living and where language groups rarely, if ever, interacted with each other.

Free trade may have finished off Neanderthals
NewScientist.com news service
Celeste Biever

"Modern humans may have driven Neanderthals to extinction 30,000 years ago because Homo sapiens unlocked the secrets of free trade, say a group of US and Dutch economists. The theory could shed new light on the mysterious and sudden demise of the Neanderthals after over 260,000 years of healthy survival..."

Free Trade down thru history. lol:cof1:
 
That's interesting. I don't want to get everything off the track but here in Australia there is a lot of evidence to suggest that aboriginal people here were extremely varied in culture from region to region. The coastal areas show 40,000 years of sedentary settlement, with evidence of rudimentary farming and aquaculture such as fish traps. But even in those areas the language groupings show the influence of other language groups (in modern parlance there are places in New South Wales and Queensland that have aboriginal language influence from as far south as Victoria, indicating an inland and semi-coastal trading corridor).
 
I don't know enough about it to really give an infomed opinion. I do know that tribal groups were run by a collective of elders and not a single leader. No taxes or other charges because the idea of individual property wasn't known. What was traded was what was offered by the tribe and what was accepted was what was needed by the tribe. In traditional aboriginal society even the tools for survival (spears, digging tools, woomeras, boomerangs etc) were collectively owned and not owned by an individual.

I think the idea of the "free market" is a myth anyway. I think it can be ascribed to Adam Smith, who would be appalled if he saw what was happening in the name of "free trade" today. My meagre understanding tells me that Smith was arguing against mercantilism and looking to the idea of "individual enlightened self-interest", the butcher, the baker, the candlestick maker, to trade freely. I think now there is no free trade, no free market, everything is controlled by corporations and cartels.

Sorry, I was getting rant-worthy.

As I was saying, I would think that in aboriginal society back then that the bartering process would have been controlled by the elder group. Traditional aboriginal society doesn't have a history of single authority figures in a tribe, even today in traditional communities, it's usually a collective of elders (all men) who sit down and sort things out. In my work some years ago I had to travel to an isolated traditional community and speak with an elders council. I was told by a European (ie white) advisor that everything was done on a communal basis. There are no single, heroic figures in aboriginal society such as there were in First Nations/Native American societies in North America. There is one legendary aboriginal figure, Bennelong, who is still known and acknowledged, but that's primarily because of his assitance to the colonists in 1788.

Yeah the tribal elders thing sounds kinda like some form of socialism / communism / tribalism... well some form of ism, anyway :)
 
Yeah the tribal elders thing sounds kinda like some form of socialism / communism / tribalism... well some form of ism, anyway :)

Except some of their customs would make you pale. But this isn't an anthropology thread (and I know two-fifths of sfa about anthropology anyway) so I should now put a sock in it :D
 
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