the worst of liberalism

Bfgrn said:
The standard right wing polarized argument. It is the device of the child mind. It reminds me of when my daughter was a little and rode into the street on her bike. I took her bike away for a week. She pleaded with me, but that didn't work. When she realized I was not going to give in, she said; 'now I will not remember how to ride a bike and it will be your fault!'
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How is it different? Please enlighten me how children are to learn personal restraint and responsibility without any chance to exercise it? And while you're at it, refute my argument about the curfew. Who is harmed?
 
Bfgrn said:
The standard right wing polarized argument. It is the device of the child mind. It reminds me of when my daughter was a little and rode into the street on her bike. I took her bike away for a week. She pleaded with me, but that didn't work. When she realized I was not going to give in, she said; 'now I will not remember how to ride a bike and it will be your fault!'
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It really pains me that the logical fallacy you've used here wasn't immediately evident when I read it. Essentially you're confirming what I'm saying. That it is the PARENT(S) That should be making the decision, not a third party. A more accurate representation of what you propose would be if a police officer took your daughters bike, regardless of her use of it, and said that she couldn't have it anymore for the possibility that she might ride it in the street, along with all the other children in the neighborhood. But a statist like you would probably be ok with that. After all, no one was harmed, so it must be good for the police to make that judgement for you.
 
King of Guns said:
Too bad for them then. It's for their own safety. Statistics say that over 90% of auto accidents (the leading killer under 25) are caused by youths at night anyways. Better they, and everyone else, not be allowed out after dark. It's just too dangerous.
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But it's the percentages or likelihood of something occurring that we're concerned with. What percent of children are obese compared to the percentage killed in auto accidents?

(Excerpt) But the percentages have topped out at very high numbers. Nearly 34 percent of adults are obese, more than double the percentage 30 years ago. The share of obese children tripled during that time, to 17 percent. (End)
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/14/health/14obese.htm

(Excerpt) High body mass index (BMI) among children and adolescents continues to be a public health concern in the United States. Children with high BMI often become obese adults, and obese adults are at risk for many chronic conditions such as diabetes, cardiovascular disease, and certain cancers. High BMI in children may also have immediate consequences, such as elevated lipid concentrations and blood pressure.​ Since 1980, the prevalence of BMI for age at or above the 95th percentile (sometimes termed “obese”) has tripled among school-age children and adolescents, and it remains high at approximately 17%. (End)
http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/303/3/242.full

If 17% of youths died in auto accidents we wouldn't think twice about attempting to correct the situation.
 
apple0154 said:
But it's the percentages or likelihood of something occurring that we're concerned with. What percent of children are obese compared to the percentage killed in auto accidents?

(Excerpt) But the percentages have topped out at very high numbers. Nearly 34 percent of adults are obese, more than double the percentage 30 years ago. The share of obese children tripled during that time, to 17 percent. (End)
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/14/health/14obese.htm

(Excerpt) High body mass index (BMI) among children and adolescents continues to be a public health concern in the United States. Children with high BMI often become obese adults, and obese adults are at risk for many chronic conditions such as diabetes, cardiovascular disease, and certain cancers. High BMI in children may also have immediate consequences, such as elevated lipid concentrations and blood pressure.​ Since 1980, the prevalence of BMI for age at or above the 95th percentile (sometimes termed “obese”) has tripled among school-age children and adolescents, and it remains high at approximately 17%. (End)
http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/303/3/242.full

If 17% of youths died in auto accidents we wouldn't think twice about attempting to correct the situation.
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Roughly 40% of youths who die, die in auto accidents. Plus your data is grossly flawed since BMI has been shown on multiple occasions to be a poor barometer for health and weight standards. Hell according to my BMI I'm obese, yet some how have a 12% body fat. All BMI is is a relation of height to weight. It does not indicate in any way whether an individual is healthy.
 
Bfgrn said:
When a child is in school, the school is in loco parentis.
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Hence the rise in numbers of families who are homeschooling. The school acts as both a branch of the executive and pretends there is no conflict when they say they are acting in loco parentis. Children should have an absolute right, one that cannot be waived by some figure acting "in loco parentis" to have a true advocate present at any time they are questioned by the police.
 
Damocles said:
If this were true the Soviet Union would have been a success.
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Ironic Damo, back in the late '80's Russia had it's own tea party. It was made up of conservatives, the Stalinists, nationalists and Tom Tancredo xenophobes who wanted their country back.

February 27, 1989

Soviet Conservatives Try to Turn Back the Clock on Gorbachev's Policies

MOSCOW, Feb. 26— Russian conservatives, uneasy with the liberalization of Soviet society under Mikhail S. Gorbachev, have seized on the country's experiment in more democratic elections as a chance to fight for a return to more authoritarian ways.

While many candidates and voters say they view the elections to the new Congress of Deputies as a way to further the candor and freedoms allowed by the Soviet leader, conservatives in this city and around the country were boasting last week that they had already succeeded in blocking the nomination of several prominent people regarded as liberals.

A Disparate Alliance
The conservatives are a disparate alliance, including xenophobic fringe groups, like Pamyat, as well as large numbers of less extreme nationalists who yearn for what they see as the simple values of Old Russia and the Orthodox church.

Nikita F. Zherbin, head of the Leningrad chapter of Pamyat, delighted in the fact that Mr. Korotich had been forced off the ballot in Moscow's Sverdlovsk region, and described this as the first successful step in the conservative campaign to use the elections as a vehicle for its political ideas.

'I Am a Stalinist'
''We brought our case to the people, and the outcome speaks for us,'' said Mr. Zherbin, whose group regards the liberalization of Soviet society as a conspiracy by Jews, Masons and Westernizers.

Soviet Conservatives Try to Turn Back the Clock on Gorbachev's Policies


While not all conservatives are authoritarians; all highly authoritarian personalities are political conservatives.
Robert Altmeyer - The Authoritarians
 
King of Guns said:
It really pains me that the logical fallacy you've used here wasn't immediately evident when I read it. Essentially you're confirming what I'm saying. That it is the PARENT(S) That should be making the decision, not a third party. A more accurate representation of what you propose would be if a police officer took your daughters bike, regardless of her use of it, and said that she couldn't have it anymore for the possibility that she might ride it in the street, along with all the other children in the neighborhood. But a statist like you would probably be ok with that. After all, no one was harmed, so it must be good for the police to make that judgement for you.
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Still waiting for your reply bucko.
 
King of Guns said:
How is it different? Please enlighten me how children are to learn personal restraint and responsibility without any chance to exercise it? And while you're at it, refute my argument about the curfew. Who is harmed?
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And you still haven't answered these important questions yet either.
 
Bfgrn said:
Ironic Damo, back in the late '80's Russia had it's own tea party. It was made up of conservatives, the Stalinists, nationalists and Tom Tancredo xenophobes who wanted their country back.

February 27, 1989

Soviet Conservatives Try to Turn Back the Clock on Gorbachev's Policies

MOSCOW, Feb. 26— Russian conservatives, uneasy with the liberalization of Soviet society under Mikhail S. Gorbachev, have seized on the country's experiment in more democratic elections as a chance to fight for a return to more authoritarian ways.

While many candidates and voters say they view the elections to the new Congress of Deputies as a way to further the candor and freedoms allowed by the Soviet leader, conservatives in this city and around the country were boasting last week that they had already succeeded in blocking the nomination of several prominent people regarded as liberals.

A Disparate Alliance
The conservatives are a disparate alliance, including xenophobic fringe groups, like Pamyat, as well as large numbers of less extreme nationalists who yearn for what they see as the simple values of Old Russia and the Orthodox church.

Nikita F. Zherbin, head of the Leningrad chapter of Pamyat, delighted in the fact that Mr. Korotich had been forced off the ballot in Moscow's Sverdlovsk region, and described this as the first successful step in the conservative campaign to use the elections as a vehicle for its political ideas.

'I Am a Stalinist'
''We brought our case to the people, and the outcome speaks for us,'' said Mr. Zherbin, whose group regards the liberalization of Soviet society as a conspiracy by Jews, Masons and Westernizers.

Soviet Conservatives Try to Turn Back the Clock on Gorbachev's Policies


While not all conservatives are authoritarians; all highly authoritarian personalities are political conservatives.
Robert Altmeyer - The Authoritarians
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Which doesn't change what I have stated. If the "worst of liberalism" was "better" than the "best of conservatism" as based in current political lexicon, then the Soviet Union would be a current and active successful nation.
 
Damocles said:
If this were true the Soviet Union would have been a success.
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Only if you consider Stalin a liberal. Which he was not. He was a tyrant dictator. He had his own agenda and it was certainly not liberalism. If you read the history of Stalinism in the CCCP you would find that quickly. Though he retained the name Communist he was not that either. I can have a hamburger and call it a bacon sandwich but it still does not make it bacon only in name but in reality only those that wish to be fooled are.
If you were raised in the US you would have been taught that the CCCP was a Communist state. You would also have been taught that Columbus discovered America and neither is true. If you believe them they are simply the lies your teachers told you that you have chosen to accept as truth.
 
Bfgrn said:
Being a parent doesn't give you ownership of a child. What would or should happen if parents don't feed a kid, or feed him dog food?
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Deflection. Answer the question. Should the police have came and seized the bike or not?
 
SmarterThanYou said:
that's because it's not authoritarianism when it's considered for your benefit.
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No, I see it as a local issue in one school, not a slippery slope.

I've also seen the kinds of lunches some kids bring from home. Chips, cupcakes and a soft drink, because some parents don't have the common sense to figure out a healthful lunch.
 
Bfgrn said:
The standard right wing polarized argument. It is the device of the child mind. It reminds me of when my daughter was a little and rode into the street on her bike. I took her bike away for a week. She pleaded with me, but that didn't work. When she realized I was not going to give in, she said; 'now I will not remember how to ride a bike and it will be your fault!'
Click to expand...

Ha ha, I love child logic!
 
christiefan915 said:
No, I see it as a local issue in one school, not a slippery slope.

I've also seen the kinds of lunches some kids bring from home. Chips, cupcakes and a soft drink, because some parents don't have the common sense to figure out a healthful lunch.
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It's known as incrementalism. Gun owners are fairly well acquainted with it.
 
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