This says basically everything I've wanted to say for a long time and didn't know how

Here's a quick, random thought. If right-wingers are supposed to be all about the value of hard work and they're supposed to have this mystically better understanding of the economy, they should be able to answer this question:
If you think people should value hard work, why don't you encourage incentivizing hard work?

Here’s a quick answer to your inept random thinking; why do you think your strawmen are legitimate questions?

But better yet, why do you think Government is not the reason people are dis-incentivized to work and how do you arrive at such erroneous conclusions? How do food stamps, healthcare subsidies, housing subsidies and welfare incentives to go out and find work and be independent? What studies show that these are incentives to find work?

Valuing a hard work ethic is not a “right winger” position; it is an AMERICAN value; one that is steadily being eroded by leftist Progressive Liberal idealism. I am quite certain there are plenty of “left wingers” who believe in the hard work ethic as well.

Because 35 years of flat wages and ever-increasing productivity seems like a pretty damn strong argument that hard work has been pretty powerfully de-incentivized recently.

I find that when simple minded fools obtain statistical data, they tend to misread them.

Here’s an article with a few facts about the myth of the of the stagnating middle class and wages:

The myth of a stagnant middle class
A favorite "progressive" trope is that America's middle class has stagnated economically since the 1970s. One version of this claim, made by Robert Reich, President Clinton's labor secretary, is typical: "After three decades of flat wages during which almost all the gains of growth have gone to the very top," he wrote in 2010, "the middle class no longer has the buying power to keep the economy going."

This trope is spectacularly wrong.

http://www.aei.org/article/economics/the-myth-of-a-stagnant-middle-class

The Myth of Stagnant Wages

It's a core message found in almost every Democratic presidential stump speech.

"Corporate profits and CEO pay are hitting new highs, while wages for hard-working Americans are stagnant." —Hillary Clinton, February 2007

"For too long, they've told us we can't do anything about disappearing jobs and stagnant wages."—Barack Obama, June 2007

"I talked earlier about some of the adverse effects of globalization—stagnant wages and rising inequality." —John Edwards, August 2007

That's the rhetoric used to discredit the six-year economic expansion. But this line of argument is nothing new. According to left-of-center economists, middle-class wages—and thus our standard of living—have been stagnant for some three decades. In other words, the entire 30-year economic experiment of low taxes, free trade, and less regulation begun by Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan has been a complete and utter failure.

Perhaps. But before you consider some data I have compiled (as well as a couple of interviews), consider this: If the standard of living of the average American really had not improved for more than three decades, wouldn't there have been a tremendous political backlash by now? Wouldn't the Democratic Party have fully mutated into a full-scale social democratic party—nationalized healthcare, a return to superhigh tax rates—rather than moving right over the past three decades? Would centrist or right-wing candidates (Reagan I, Reagan II, Bush I, Clinton II, Bush I, Bush II) have won six of the past seven elections? I think not. Anyway, here are the real numbers:


http://money.usnews.com/money/blogs/capital-commerce/2007/09/20/the-myth-of-stagnant-wages

Read; become informed instead of a left wing parrot of false DNC talking points.

Maybe the problem with kids today isn't that they have a sense of entitlement -- it's that the economy straight up doesn't reward them for working as powerfully as it rewarded people a few decades ago. .

This is a fascinating, but false supposition; I always thought that the threat of starvation was a great incentive to go out and find work. Perhaps the problem with today’s generation comes from the fact that Obama’s leftist agenda is killing jobs in this country? Does that ever occur to you?

Obama, after nearly five years has overseen the worst recovery on record; a recovery that entails low paying jobs mostly with part time work.

On top of that, the mountain of debt and deficits Obama has recklessly engaged in are the highest in the history of the Presidency. Perhaps that too is an incentive not to work; after all, who do you think is going to have to pay for all that debt?

Fix the incentive problem, and you'll see the work ethic you love so much spring back up like so many May flowers.

But there is your fallacy; it is not an incentive problem. It is a JOBS problem. Jobs are disappearing faster than they are being created. I say fix the JOBS problem by severely cutting down the size and scope of Government, creating a PART time legislature instead of full time political career legislature and supplanting the current abomination of a tax code that DIS-incentivizes investment and job creation with a Fair Tax that will incentivize job creation.

Here's a clue for you, what do all these statements have in common:

"Corporate profits and CEO pay are hitting new highs, while wages for hard-working Americans are stagnant." —Hillary Clinton, February 2007

"For too long, they've told us we can't do anything about disappearing jobs and stagnant wages."—Barack Obama, June 2007

"I talked earlier about some of the adverse effects of globalization—stagnant wages and rising inequality." —John Edwards, August 2007


They are all lies uttered by Democrat Liberals who need Americans to feel dependent on them for their economic outcomes. Without the "dependency" mentality of the American voter furthered by lies, distortions and Marxist class envy rhetoric, politicians like these become irrelevant. And one thing you can be certain of when it comes to Liberal politicians; their jobs are much more important than the welfare of the American people.
 
I couldn't give less of a flying fuck what you're hearing about. I want you to THINK about the fact that wages have remained stagnant while productivity has increased by 175%, and ask yourself what effect that has on the morale and desire of the people working under those conditions to put in the kind of hard work that their parents did. If you reduce people's incentive to do something, do have any right to even be surprised, much less bitch about it, when they do less of that thing?

I bolded the relevant part of your dialogue; this is why I call you stupid.

Now do us all a favor; provide a credible source to your rabid leftist claims or please STFU. Your diatribes are nauseatingly repugnant.
 
What gives you the impression that I'm not 'dealing with it'? We're all fucking 'dealing with it'; we don't have a choice. There's not even an option that isn't 'dealing with it.' But the fact that we're obligated to 'deal with it' doesn't mean that we shouldn't be looking at WHY we have to 'deal with it' and WHO made us 'deal with it' and HOW we can avoid this entire scenario in the future.

And you could very easily 'know' that if you did just a few moment's research. Look up wages vs. productivity over the last 30 years. Look up consumer goods price indexes vs. inflation. All the data is out there, all you need to do is take a few moments to put it together for yourself, and then ask yourself the questions I just posed.

Your individual experience is irrelevant. My individual experience is irrelevant. The point is the large scale, not how you or I or any one other person has managed to scrape by. The point is that the entire right-wing bullshit about how it's all the fault of each and every one of the hundreds of millions of people that have managed to keep living despite the wage stagnation and the income inequality is just that -- bullshit.

The bolded part is why you are not honest but merely a hyper partisan asshat that whines effusively about being called stupid for making incredibly stupid claims like the one bolded above.

We call this a strawman; it is a false claim made by unintelligent partisans who fabricate an argument and then argue against the fabricated argument thinking that they are making a valid point. Unfortunately for the stupid partisan asshat, they usually get called on their massive lies and fabrications and then whine when they are called stupid.

I am amused that you think that YOUR personal situation, or those of others, has nothing to do with the CHOICES YOU made in your life. How is that? How did those evil “right wingers” prevent you from pursuing a career you liked and prevent you from earning the income you feel you are ENTITLED to?

You keep ranting ignorant about inflation and wage stagnation. Let me give you a tidbit of reality that you apparently cannot wrap that repugnant uninformed head around: In 1987, I purchased an IBM PC with 640K and a color monitor for $3,000. I thought I was way ahead of the technical curve and that it gave me advantage over others not so technically inclined. What do you think that PC costs in todays dollars?

Here’s another one; in 1989, I purchased a portable telephone. It was literally a telephone that you carried like a brief case. This phone cost me, at the time, over $1,000. BUT, again I thought it gave me a technological edge over my competition; what do you think that $1,000 is in today’s dollars.

Technology has made us more productive and the cost of that technology has dropped dramatically, while wages have increased. To most people, this has been a good thing. To some, apparently like you, the Government should have made that technology more expensive by increasing minimum wage laws to artificial levels and forcing the companies that make these technological miracles to manufacture them in the US for artificially high union wage rates.

Yes, Essence, you really are THAT incredibly stupid and repugnantly arrogant.
 
Here's a quick, random thought. If right-wingers are supposed to be all about the value of hard work and they're supposed to have this mystically better understanding of the economy, they should be able to answer this question:

If you think people should value hard work, why don't you encourage incentivizing hard work? Because 35 years of flat wages and ever-increasing productivity seems like a pretty damn strong argument that hard work has been pretty powerfully de-incentivized recently. Maybe the problem with kids today isn't that they have a sense of entitlement -- it's that the economy straight up doesn't reward them for working as powerfully as it rewarded people a few decades ago. Fix the incentive problem, and you'll see the work ethic you love so much spring back up like so many May flowers.


35 years of 'flat wages' ?.....where do you come up with that shit ?.....
Productivity is hurting us ?.........We graduate from wheelbarrows to heavy duty dump trucks and thats a bad thing ?
We move from picks and shovels to backhoes and earth movers and thats bad ?

And most, if not all of that increase in 'productivity' is from improvements in methods and machinery, NOT working harder...
Is your lack of incentive because you can't handle todays more complex employment standards.....sorry about that, blacksmiths and ditch diggers are and will
remain a thing of the past...

No, the problem with kids today is that they have a sense of entitlement.....the leftists have been screaming in their ears from years how they
are entitled to just about everything....entitled to good healthy food, a nice place to live, nice clothes, the best healthcare, high paying jobs or at least generous
welfare, gov. checks if you can't find your utopia in the job market, ... or simply don't want to work or maybe a free cellphone and free airtime, or bigger
tax credits if you happen to have more children than you can afford to take of, and the injustice it is that everyone don't have their own homes....etc.
the list is endless......
 
essance... said:
But the fact that we're obligated to 'deal with it' doesn't mean that we shouldn't be looking at WHY we have to 'deal with it' and WHO made us 'deal with it'


Yeah, why don't you LOOK at WHY.....isn't this the century of the progressives ?....I've been hearing that for decades.....
those damn Conservatives are always on the wrong side of history.....a dying breed....a political party heading for extinction....

That happens to be true for the most part....progressives having been gaining in power for decades....making headway in getting legislation passed
to govern and drive the social agenda ..... its why we are where are today.....its why we have

A record 21.6 million young adults were still living at home

The number of Americans living in poverty not seen since the mid 1960s

record long term unemployment is at the highest level since at least the end of World War II

record numbers getting disability

record numbers getting food stamps

record high national debt

record....number of Americans designated as "not in the labor force" in February, 2013 was 89,304,000, a record high
 
I'm amused that you think your posts are not filled with hyperbole, opinion and lies. What facts support Liberal ideologues?

The ones I've cited?


There are none. You claim to be interested in debate; but you're not. In order to be interested in debate you have to use facts. It is painfully obvious facts have no impact on you.

Then why am I the one citing them, and you have exactly none? Not even in this post, which is a direct response to a direct challenge to argue for your beliefs with support?


You want to know what I believe? I believe that Progressivism is a mental disease for gullible emotional fools who place their faith in political outcomes rather than free markets.

OK, that's all well and good, but what I wanted to know was WHY you believe what you believe. As in, facts that support your belief. Statistics. Real-world numbers that show that progressivism is hurting the world.

I am a staunch believer in the Constitution and the limitations it places on the Federal Government. I believe in free market capitalism and an intelligent regulated market. The Federal Governments role should be limited to the nations defense including defending our borders, making treaties and administering our laws. It should not be in the business of re-distribution and subsidizing. All other powers are reserved for the States where they should be.

Great speech. Where did these beliefs COME FROM? Are you just spouting what your parents told you? Have you actually done any examination of these beliefs in the face of provable numbers that come from nonpartisan sources?


Abolish the current tax code which is an abomination and supplant it with a Fair Tax or flat tax.

Fair/flat taxes almost always end up dramatically favoring the rich, because they almost never include any form of capital gains and universally never tax what you HAVE, only what you EARN. If you want to institute a tax that takes away 10% of your net worth every year, I'm all for it -- but every 'fair tax' I've ever seen a plan for is basically an excuse for rich people who don't have to earn money at a job to keep more of their annual delta-net than the rest of us get to. If you're willing to back a flat tax that actually taxes the rich on their true delta-net rather than just their nominal earned income, Zakat-style, I'm totally behind you on that.

Mandate term limits on Senators of two terms and Representatives to three terms without the capability of cross over.

Fuck yes.


Abolish the Department of Labor, Education, Health an Human Services, Housing and Urban Develoment, Energy and Agriculture.

I've heard this said a lot, but I'm honestly not sure why. I know that at the very minimum, this would cause total fucking chaos in the US for several years -- long enough to really screw up a lot of kids' lives, including my son's -- while the free market got it's shit together. There's also that whole thing where you just eliminated every social safety net in the country in one swing, which would have us in French Revolution territory in a matter of weeks. You think there's class warfare now? You try taking away SNAP, TANF, and unemployment benefits and watch how fast the owner class gets hunted down and eaten.


End ALL subsidies.

Fuck yes.

If you're not interested in doing the above, then you're uninterested in REAL change and ending the partisan bickering, cronyism and lobbying that is a way of life in Washington DC. Anything less is mere window dressing. Those things I listed above are not partisan; they are common sense and the ONLY way to end the political corruption in Washington.

You forgot "prevent corporations from making political donations", "prevent corporations from installing people on the boards of agencies designed to oversee their industries" and "prevent corporations from giving gifts to agencies and individuals in the agencies that are designed to oversee their industries." Tack those on there, and hash out the whole gutting the executive branch, and we have a plan we can agree on.


Facts? You would'nt comprehend a fact if it slapped you on your hyper partisan leftist skull. If you did, you wouldn't be a brain dead partisan leftist hack parroting the brain dead talking points of the DNC.

See, you have this problem where you believe that any fact that doesn't support your beliefs therefore must be wrong. The truth is that it works the other way: if a fact is a fact and it doesn't jive with what's in your head, it's whats in your head that needs to change. If it doesn't, you're just living up to your own favorite word.


So, I'll ask you again, TD: are you capable of showing evidence supporting your beliefs, or are you just spouting the words in your head on repeat -- which, by the way, is actually literally the definition of derp?
 
you will kill no one.


the police will blow you away before you muster the gonads to kill anyone.


man am I sick of nutters who think they are scary because they brag about guns.


the sad thing is you don't even know what I said is actually a compliment to you

Where did he say he would kill you with a gun.
Maybe he just intends to beat your stupid ass to death. :palm:
 
debate all you like. deny me any of my rights and freedoms, I will kill you.

he has said it more than once.

You see when you have fucking idiots like this around who PETEND someone is denying them rights so they can fucking kill people that doesn't make any of their rights really threatened.


what right has this asshole lost?
 
I asked him if he was going to shoot up LAX and he said only If I were there or some such bullshit.

Your all tuff guys on the interwebs but if someone really tried to take your guns you would shit your pants and say thank you sir and hand them over
 
No one is trying to take you penis'........oh I mean guns.

and yes no one wants your penis' either
 
Interesting thread. I've always been fascinated by 'class' in America - something that doesn't exist in America. A paradox. Mom used to tell us stories of the Great Depression whenever we complained about having little to eat. I wonder how many today know real poverty? Today I move in various classes and while there are similarities there are distinct differences. The rich have life better materially, psychically they are often as wacky as the rest. The children of the well-to-do have much opportunity. Our family's goal was a job, there was no way college played into that picture. A few of us moved up the food chain.

There is no doubt wages and jobs in America for the working class have stagnated. Automation, outsourcing, and technology as well as the global marketplace have changed much. Add to that fifty years of business propaganda against unions and regulation and you arrive at today. Mix in tax policy and the cake is made. As Pogo said, 'we have met the enemy...' What to do, rather than ranting?

"Those changes are blips on a timeline compared to the massive, psyche-altering vicissitudes of American Industry, its self-Taylorization to the point where profit-making and shareholder value have been maximized in ways that Morgans and Carnegies and Vanderbilts couldn't even have conceived — in ways that have stiffed workers and the families they can no longer afford. Since '79, the top 1 percent of earners in America has seen their income quadruple." from article: http://aweinstein.kinja.com/fuck-you-im-gen-y-and-i-dont-feel-special-or-entitl-1333588443

At various points along the trajectory to today, decisions were made, debated and implemented. How is it that the result is unsatisfactory for so many? For simplicity, on one side there's entitlements, on the other fairness, on one side too much tax, on the other too little. Could it be that this is a wonderful (manufactured) ruse that helps some so much it becomes a kind of programmed reality? Lots more thoughts but I'll close with a few quotes from books worth a read.

"Something is profoundly wrong with the way we live today. For thirty years we have made a virtue out of the pursuit of material self-interest: indeed, this very pursuit now constitutes whatever remains of our sense of collective purpose. We know what things cost but have no idea what they are worth. We no longer ask of a judicial ruling or a legislative act: is it good? Is it fair? Is it just? Is it right? Will it help bring about a better society or a better world? Those used to be the political questions, even if they invited no easy answers. We must learn once again to pose them." Tony Judt 'Ill Fares the Land'

"The United States in the 1980s devoted 5.2-6.5 percent of its gross national product to military uses; Germany devoted less than half that, Japan less than 1 percent...The American resources so used were at cost to civilian investment and consumption; those so saved in Japan and Germany were available for civilian use and specifically for improving civilian industry. The matter of the use of trained manpower was particularly important. By some calculations, from a quarter to a third of all American scientific engineering talent in recent years was employed in relatively sterile weapons research and development. This talent the Japanese and the Germans devoted to the improvement of their civilian production. Japan, defeated in war by American industrial power, has now in peacetime extensively replaced its erstwhile enemy in productive service to the American consumer." John Kenneth Galbraith 'The Culture of Contentment'

"To serve contentment, there were and are three basic requirements. One is the need to defend the general limitation on government as regards the economy; there must be a doctrine that offers a feasible presumption against government intervention...The second, more specific need is to find social justification for the untrammeled, uninhibited pursuit and possession of wealth....There is need for demonstration that the pursuit of wealth or even less spectacular well-being serves a serious, even grave social purpose....The third need is to justify a reduced sense of public responsibility for the poor. Those so situated, the members of the functional and socially immobilised underclass, must, in some very real way, be seen as the architects of their own fate. If not, they could be, however marginally, on the conscience of the comfortable." John Kenneth Galbraith, The Culture of Contentment

If you want to understand a bit about today, check the book below out.

"And yet over the course of the decade the old skepticism toward business that had been born in the Great Depression and reawakened for a new generation in the Vietnam era finally began to disappear. The economic transformations of the decade would be interpreted through the framework of the free market vision. The 1970s campaigns to revive the image of capitalism among college students bore fruit in the 1980s. Universities created new centers for the study of business themes such as entrepreneurship. Students in Free Enterprise, a group started in 1975 to bring students together to "discuss what they might do to counteract the stultifying criticism of American business," thrived on small college campuses, funded by companies like Coors, Dow Chemical, and Walmart (as well as the Business Roundtable). The group organized battles of the bands, at which prizes would be doled out to the best pro-business rock anthems, helped silkscreen T-shirts with pro-capitalist messages, and created skits based on Milton Friedman's writings, which college students would perform in local elementary schools. In the workplace, the decline of the old manufacturing cities of [he North and Midwest and the rise of the sprawling suburbs of the Sunbelt metropolises marked the rise of a new economic culture, dominated by companies such as Walmart and Home Depot and Barnes & Noble." Kim Phillips-Fein ('Invisible Hands')

"The Clinton years of the 1990s symbolized the success of the new order, not the restoration of the old. The end of the cold war meant that there seemed no longer to be any real alternative to capitalism; if that was the case, what now stood in the way of unrestrained laissez-faire? In the frenzy that followed, the CEO and the entrepreneur came to be seen as folk heroes, much as the Business Roundtable had once hoped they might - risk-taking daredevils whose brave and courageous acts perennially revolutionized American society. The market was the truly democratic sphere, the state for plodding bureaucrats only. The new economic order was one without a place for unions or much role for the government in shaping economic ends. As president, Bill Clinton accomplished much of what Reagan could not: the dismantling of welfare, the deregulation of Wall Street, the expansion of free trade. Labor experienced no grand revival under the Democratic president; economic inequality continued to widen. Even Barry Goldwater (whose stubborn support for abortion and gay rights in the 1990s put him increasingly on the outskirts of his own party) could express approval of Clinton. As he wrote to the Republican Speaker of the House, Newt Gingrich, "He's a Democrat, but I do admire him, I think he's doing a good job."" Kim Phillips-Fein ('Invisible Hands')
 
That happens to be true for the most part....progressives having been gaining in power for decades....making headway in getting legislation passed to govern and drive the social agenda ..... its why we are where are today..

You mean with a top income tax bracket lower than it's been in decades, capital gains taxes lower than they've been ever, investment banks and consumer banks being one in the same again after half a century of excellent economic conditions while they were forcibly separated, and a financial system so deregulated that they invented an entirely fictional kind of financial vehicle, used it to leverage the economy to impossible heights, and then tanked the entire world with it?

That's progressive? It's the conservative bullshit that caused the problems. The fact that you don't like the results of the progressive method of coping with the steaming shitpile that your kind left us with is utterly irrelevant.
 
You mean with a top income tax bracket lower than it's been in decades, capital gains taxes lower than they've been ever, investment banks and consumer banks being one in the same again after half a century of excellent economic conditions while they were forcibly separated, and a financial system so deregulated that they invented an entirely fictional kind of financial vehicle, used it to leverage the economy to impossible heights, and then tanked the entire world with it?

That's progressive? It's the conservative bullshit that caused the problems. The fact that you don't like the results of the progressive method of coping with the steaming shitpile that your kind left us with is utterly irrelevant.

Since your OP said everything you've always wanted to say, why are you still talking??
 
You mean with a top income tax bracket lower than it's been in decades, capital gains taxes lower than they've been ever, investment banks and consumer banks being one in the same again after half a century of excellent economic conditions while they were forcibly separated, and a financial system so deregulated that they invented an entirely fictional kind of financial vehicle, used it to leverage the economy to impossible heights, and then tanked the entire world with it?

First, the policies you list above had nothing to do with the mortgage meltdown. That can be laid at the feet of Liberal Democrats who wanted to make it very easy for people to get mortgages with little or no money down, and Bernanke’s loose and easy monetary policies to support such a mistaken endeavor.

But let’s go ahead and pretend for a moment that you know what it is you are talking about, which you really do not.

Do you actually believe that if we raised marginal tax rates to the former 90%, increased the taxes on Capital Gains to their former levels and significantly tightened regulations on banks and institutions it would result in a big improvement in the economy? If so, how and where do you get such information?

That's progressive? It's the conservative bullshit that caused the problems. The fact that you don't like the results of the progressive method of coping with the steaming shitpile that your kind left us with is utterly irrelevant.

The only steaming “shitpile” being left to us is the massive increase in debt as a result of the highest deficits we have ever had in our history thanks to Democrats and the “shitpile” called Obamacare that will pile on even more deficit and debt while not doing anything to make this nation healthier or improve our healthcare systems.

The mortgage mess you refer to primarily impacted the irresponsible who invested in those junk mortgages, the rich you seem to love to hate, and the idiots trying to make a fast buck by buying properties they couldn't afford and flipping them. Those few mortgage holders too stupid to realize they could not pay a baloon payment no matter how many years down the road it took lost very little because they had NOTHING in the game.

So I will await your economic wisdom to the questions I posed above to see if you really are that incredibly clueless about how the real world works or just the rabid dimwitted rabid hyper partisan leftist you appear to be.
 
You mean with a top income tax bracket lower than it's been in decades, capital gains taxes lower than they've been ever, investment banks and consumer banks being one in the same again after half a century of excellent economic conditions while they were forcibly separated, and a financial system so deregulated that they invented an entirely fictional kind of financial vehicle, used it to leverage the economy to impossible heights, and then tanked the entire world with it?

That's progressive? It's the conservative bullshit that caused the problems. The fact that you don't like the results of the progressive method of coping with the steaming shitpile that your kind left us with is utterly irrelevant.
You know all this; and are to dumb to invest!
 
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