Two ways to fix our "Democracy"

USFREEDOM911 said:
I paid into SS and it's my money to use, under the SS guidelines.
It does have assets.
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So then a 20 year old now paying into SS will be guaranteed his money later on right? I mean if it is an asset it can't be taken away correct? The simple fact is it can because it is not an asset. I cannot take a loan out on my SS that I paid into right now.

People "do" pay into SS but they are not guaranteed any money back that they put in for the simple fact that when someone dies that money can't be "willed" to say a uncle or nephew.
 
Sentistar said:
So then a 20 year old now paying into SS will be guaranteed his money later on right? I mean if it is an asset it can't be taken away correct? The simple fact is it can because it is not an asset. I cannot take a loan out on my SS that I paid into right now.

People "do" pay into SS but they are not guaranteed any money back that they put in for the simple fact that when someone dies that money can't be "willed" to say a uncle or nephew.
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The things you say are true, but it's more basic than that. There is no money. Government takes it in and spends it. It's not just that you can't get the money later, it doesn't exist. It goes out as it comes in like every other tax.

So to pay social security welfare checks, government taxes today's taxpayers to get it just like they do when they spend for military, for interest on the debt, for other welfare programs or any other government expenditure.

Government is saying to me hey kaz, we need to pay USFreedom's social security check. But it's OK, the money we're taking from you, he saved that. So all is good.

So if he saved that, why are you taking it from me???
 
kaz said:
The things you say are true, but it's more basic than that. There is no money. Government takes it in and spends it. It's not just that you can't get the money later, it doesn't exist. It goes out as it comes in like every other tax.

So to pay social security welfare checks, government taxes today's taxpayers to get it just like they do when they spend for military, for interest on the debt, for other welfare programs or any other government expenditure.
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Which is a serious problem with SS and it could have been solved if the government was unable to touch that. Yes, I know there are "IOUs" for the money but we both know that doesn't cut it. SS "would" be ok if that money was invested and not touched.

Government is saying to me hey kaz, we need to pay USFreedom's social security check. But it's OK, the money we're taking from you, he saved that. So all is good.

So if he saved that, why are you taking it from me???
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Actually the money that "USFreedom" paid into SS was used to pay someone else's that retired while he was paying into it. SS is essential a type of insurance where people pay into it and the assumption is that future generations will also pay into it and those generations would be more numerous than the last. As long as SS wasn't touched and even a portion of it would be invested there wouldn't be an issue like there is now.

Now you can argue the legality of SS till the cows come home but the simple fact is right now it has been deemed legal. Saying it isn't legal is essentially pissing in the wind until the majority of people in congress vote differently or SCOTUS decides otherwise. I have seen arguments for and against SS and I can see points from both sides.

One of the reasons that SS was created is because farmers kids did not take over the farms and went into the cities. Therefore leaving their parents without any real care since in the far past the kids would take over the farms and the parents would also live there. People can argue that since that is no longer the case (hasn't been for a long time) and that SS should be reconsidered. I could see that and am always interested in hearing new ideas.
 
Sentistar said:
Which is a serious problem with SS and it could have been solved if the government was unable to touch that. Yes, I know there are "IOUs" for the money but we both know that doesn't cut it. SS "would" be ok if that money was invested and not touched.
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Yes, but they didn't. There is no money. And an IOU to yourself isn't an asset. The Federal government loaned itself money. That's just a political lie that it's an asset or a "trust fund."

Hey Senistar, I'm a millionaire! I have $10 million in IOUs to myself! It's a trust fund! Yeah, um, no


Sentistar said:
Actually the money that "USFreedom" paid into SS was used to pay someone else's that retired while he was paying into it. SS is essential a type of insurance where people pay into it and the assumption is that future generations will also pay into it and those generations would be more numerous than the last. As long as SS wasn't touched and even a portion of it would be invested there wouldn't be an issue like there is now.

Now you can argue the legality of SS till the cows come home but the simple fact is right now it has been deemed legal. Saying it isn't legal is essentially pissing in the wind until the majority of people in congress vote differently or SCOTUS decides otherwise. I have seen arguments for and against SS and I can see points from both sides.

One of the reasons that SS was created is because farmers kids did not take over the farms and went into the cities. Therefore leaving their parents without any real care since in the far past the kids would take over the farms and the parents would also live there. People can argue that since that is no longer the case (hasn't been for a long time) and that SS should be reconsidered. I could see that and am always interested in hearing new ideas.
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I understand the lies politicians told you guys, you don't have to repeat them to me. I am not saying they didn't say that, I'm saying what they said were lies.

I do like the pyramid scheme though. There were something like 30 workers per retiree when it started? Now it's just a few. And getting smaller.

Hey kaz, I have a deal for you. You pay for your parents retirement. I have good news/ bad news on that. The good news is there's a trust fund they paid into they are leaving you. The bad news is the trust fund is IOUs, and they left you the IOUs to pay. You you pay the IOUs they wrote to their trust fund, and then then they use the IOUs to pay for their own retirement. Cool, huh?

Gee, thanks Dad

Oh, Kaz, and a tip. Sure, we fucked you. So you fuck your kids and do the same to them. Cool, huh?

No, it's not. I don't want to do that to my kids even if my parents did do it to me. It's wrong.

And it's a pyramid scheme. The Greedy Generation of baby boomers jacked up their own benefits they didn't pay for and they are relying on far fewer workers per retiree to do it. Your suggestion that it's OK, we fuck our kids like we got fucked by our parents is still going to run out of money, it's not sustainable
 
kaz said:
Yes, but they didn't. There is no money. And an IOU to yourself isn't an asset. The Federal government loaned itself money. That's just a political lie that it's an asset or a "trust fund."

Hey Senistar, I'm a millionaire! I have $10 million in IOUs to myself! It's a trust fund! Yeah, um, no
Click to expand...

Again, I never stated that IOUs was a way to run SS. However, that could be solved by the government not being able to touch it like they have.

I understand the lies politicians told you guys, you don't have to repeat them to me. I am not saying they didn't say that, I'm saying what they said were lies.

I do like the pyramid scheme though. There were something like 30 workers per retiree when it started? Now it's just a few. And getting smaller.

Hey kaz, I have a deal for you. You pay for your parents retirement. I have good news/ bad news on that. The good news is there's a trust fund they paid into they are leaving you. The bad news is the trust fund is IOUs, and they left you the IOUs to pay. You you pay the IOUs they wrote to their trust fund, and then then they use the IOUs to pay for their own retirement. Cool, huh?

Gee, thanks Dad

Oh, Kaz, and a tip. Sure, we fucked you. So you fuck your kids and do the same to them. Cool, huh?

No, it's not. I don't want to do that to my kids even if my parents did do it to me. It's wrong.

And it's a pyramid scheme. The Greedy Generation of baby boomers jacked up their own benefits they didn't pay for and they are relying on far fewer workers per retiree to do it. Your suggestion that it's OK, we fuck our kids like we got fucked by our parents is still going to run out of money, it's not sustainable
Click to expand...

And I understand the lies that have been told to you about SS. It isn't a pyramid scheme because there isn't a 10% of the population getting more social security than the others.

Now SS is screwed the way they are handling it now with IOUs and such, but it isn't a pyramid scheme. In a pyramid scheme there are more people at the top getting richer and richer which isn't the case with SS. There isn't a population getting richer from SS.
 
Sentistar said:
Again, I never stated that IOUs was a way to run SS. However, that could be solved by the government not being able to touch it like they have.



And I understand the lies that have been told to you about SS. It isn't a pyramid scheme because there isn't a 10% of the population getting more social security than the others.

Now SS is screwed the way they are handling it now with IOUs and such, but it isn't a pyramid scheme. In a pyramid scheme there are more people at the top getting richer and richer which isn't the case with SS. There isn't a population getting richer from SS.
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Of course it's a pyramid scheme. Each generation screws the next generation harder than the last generation screws them and it's unsustainable. Even suggest cutting anything and Democrats do commercials of you pushing an old woman in a wheelchair off a cliff. Literally...
 
kaz said:
Of course it's a pyramid scheme. Each generation screws the next generation harder than the last generation screws them and it's unsustainable. Even suggest cutting anything and Democrats do commercials of you pushing an old woman in a wheelchair off a cliff. Literally...
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Again, it doesn't fall under a pyramid scheme because there are no 10% people at the top getting rich off of SS while collecting from others. Is it messed up now? Yes. Is it a pyramid scheme? No.
 
Sentistar said:
Again, it doesn't fall under a pyramid scheme because there are no 10% people at the top getting rich off of SS while collecting from others. Is it messed up now? Yes. Is it a pyramid scheme? No.
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There's no "10%" threshold in a pyramid scheme. You should google the definition. In a Pyramid scheme early people are paid by later comers in an unsustainable system until it collapses and the latest to join get screwed. Social security as I pointed out the Greedy Generation of Baby Boomers paid for their parents, then jacked up their checks and didn't account for that they live longer. The older you are, the better deal that was. The younger you are, the more you are screwed.

It's a pyramid scheme by definition
 
kaz said:
There's no "10%" threshold in a pyramid scheme. You should google the definition. In a Pyramid scheme early people are paid by later comers in an unsustainable system until it collapses and the latest to join get screwed. Social security as I pointed out the Greedy Generation of Baby Boomers paid for their parents, then jacked up their checks and didn't account for that they live longer. The older you are, the better deal that was. The younger you are, the more you are screwed.

It's a pyramid scheme by definition
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A pyramid scheme means the top get richer while the bottom provide. That never happened. IT's not a pyramid.
 
Rana said:
Do you plan to kill yourself at 65?
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how insane is his idea?


very





Quote Originally Posted by Hulagu Khan View Post

Term limits, with no concurrent terms.

Maximum age on both voting and serving in office. No one over 65 is allowed to vote or hold office.
 
Firstly there is no account with funds and your name on it. Never was, never intended to be.
The money coming in first pays the overhead then pays the retirees. Any surplus bought special t-bills and those proceeds went straight to the general fund.
At some point (we may already be there) the money coming in will not cover the tab for what's going out. Then taxpayers get to cover the shortfall.
The lion's share of the problem is vote buying legislation that gives full benefits without there ever having been money paid in.
And best of all, there is no guarantee in the legislation that you will be paid.
No guarantee.... let that sink in.
 
Sentistar said:
A pyramid scheme means the top get richer while the bottom provide. That never happened. IT's not a pyramid.
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Read the post you responded to, I addressed that specific point. The early joiners to the Social Security Pyramid scheme clearly do better, way better. And the younger you are, the more screwed you are
 
Celticguy said:
Hard to exclude SS recipients, they did pay in as opposed to medicaid people. But the concept is valid.
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No one "paid in." There is no money. Government is just taxing current taxpayers to pay ALL checks. Zero was saved. How do even the conservatives not get that.

Everything they paid was spent as it came in, just like for every other tax
 
kaz said:
OK. Focus. You paid money "into SS." The government spent the money on the same things they spend every other tax on. There is no money. Government goes and takes money from someone else and gives it to you. It's wealth redistribution just like any other welfare plan.

Explain how if government is taking my money and giving it to you, it's different than when government takes my money and gives it to another welfare recipient.

Maybe you should have objected when you were paying money to government and they were spending it. But you didn't save anything and government's just taking the money from your children and grandchildren to fund your check.

You can not like reality, but that is reality
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You can spin this anyway you want; but I paid into SS with the expectation of drawing from it and I fully intend to.
Unless the Government wants to pay me back all that money, plus interest, in one lump sum.
 
USFREEDOM911 said:
You can spin this anyway you want; but I paid into SS with the expectation of drawing from it and I fully intend to.
Unless the Government wants to pay me back all that money, plus interest, in one lump sum.
Click to expand...

So you think money that you paid that was spent and never saved is an asset, and I'm the one "spinning" by saying a trust fund with no assets isn't a trust fund. Got it.

Two questions:

1) Why didn't you pay attention when government was taking your money and spending it?

2) Since you didn't, why is it your children's problem?
 
Sentistar said:
So then a 20 year old now paying into SS will be guaranteed his money later on right? I mean if it is an asset it can't be taken away correct? The simple fact is it can because it is not an asset. I cannot take a loan out on my SS that I paid into right now.

People "do" pay into SS but they are not guaranteed any money back that they put in for the simple fact that when someone dies that money can't be "willed" to say a uncle or nephew.
Click to expand...

Yes; he should be able to expect that it's available to him, upon his retirement.
It's not a bank or a savings and loan.
It's not, nor was it ever intended to be a life insurance policy.
 
kaz said:
Yes, but they didn't. There is no money. And an IOU to yourself isn't an asset. The Federal government loaned itself money. That's just a political lie that it's an asset or a "trust fund."

Hey Senistar, I'm a millionaire! I have $10 million in IOUs to myself! It's a trust fund! Yeah, um, no



I understand the lies politicians told you guys, you don't have to repeat them to me. I am not saying they didn't say that, I'm saying what they said were lies.

I do like the pyramid scheme though. There were something like 30 workers per retiree when it started? Now it's just a few. And getting smaller.

Hey kaz, I have a deal for you. You pay for your parents retirement. I have good news/ bad news on that. The good news is there's a trust fund they paid into they are leaving you. The bad news is the trust fund is IOUs, and they left you the IOUs to pay. You you pay the IOUs they wrote to their trust fund, and then then they use the IOUs to pay for their own retirement. Cool, huh?

Gee, thanks Dad

Oh, Kaz, and a tip. Sure, we fucked you. So you fuck your kids and do the same to them. Cool, huh?

No, it's not. I don't want to do that to my kids even if my parents did do it to me. It's wrong.

And it's a pyramid scheme. The Greedy Generation of baby boomers jacked up their own benefits they didn't pay for and they are relying on far fewer workers per retiree to do it. Your suggestion that it's OK, we fuck our kids like we got fucked by our parents is still going to run out of money, it's not sustainable
Click to expand...

Why do you continue paying into it then?
 
kaz said:
So you think money that you paid that was spent and never saved is an asset, and I'm the one "spinning" by saying a trust fund with no assets isn't a trust fund. Got it.

Two questions:

1) Why didn't you pay attention when government was taking your money and spending it?

2) Since you didn't, why is it your children's problem?
Click to expand...

When you withdraw money from your banks savings account, is it the same money you put in?
Did you place a mark on it, so you could identify it, from anyone else's money?
 
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