U.S. soldier uses Quran for target practice; military apologizes

Battleborne said:
You are reaching Sgt!
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That is UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice) not USCMJ.

And no, I am not reaching. Being deployed in a foreign country, soldiers are given instruction on the customs and social practices of the country they are deployed in. Included in those instructions are standing orders that no soldier shall deliberately show disrespect for the customs of the people we are deployed with. Considering the instability of the area, the occurance of past events such as Abu Graib, you can bet your ass that the indoctrination to local customs and the standing orders to refrain from deliberate offense was more carefully adhered to than usual.

Clearly shooting a Quoran is showing disrespect for the customs of the Iraqi soldiers our forces are deploying with. As such, that is a violation of standing orders at the very least. In addition, the degree of the offense would easily fall under the description of conduct unbecoming a United States soldier.
 
Yes my bad............

Good Luck said:
That is UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice) not USCMJ.

And no, I am not reaching. Being deployed in a foreign country, soldiers are given instruction on the customs and social practices of the country they are deployed in. Included in those instructions are standing orders that no soldier shall deliberately show disrespect for the customs of the people we are deployed with. Considering the instability of the area, the occurance of past events such as Abu Graib, you can bet your ass that the indoctrination to local customs and the standing orders to refrain from deliberate offense was more carefully adhered to than usual.

Clearly shooting a Quoran is showing disrespect for the customs of the Iraqi soldiers our forces are deploying with. As such, that is a violation of standing orders at the very least. In addition, the degree of the offense would easily fall under the description of conduct unbecoming a United States soldier.
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on the typo...it is UCMJ..ya have to remember I left the service back in 1968...and finished a career in Federal LE...Title 18 USC always gets in the way now...:cof1: at any rate you still did not cite the code that would apply...what you cited was a general directive..at the Commanders discretion...like you yourself never made a dumb move while deployed...we all did! The intent is what the Commander looked at not the directive!
 
Battleborne said:
on the typo...it is UCMJ..ya have to remember I left the service back in 1968...and finished a career in Federal LE...Title 18 USC always gets in the way now...:cof1: at any rate you still did not cite the code that would apply...what you cited was a general directive..at the Commanders discretion...like you yourself never made a dumb move while deployed...we all did! The intent is what the Commander looked at not the directive!
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I am not a military lawyer. I know the lay term - conduct unbecoming - but do not know the specific UCMJ code. That is for JAG, to whom I would have made my recommendation. Maybe JAG would not have pursued a court, maybe they would have. But I would have definitely recommended charges had that soldier been under my command.

Yes, we all did some dumb things when deployed. But there is dumb, and there is really fucking up. Shooting a Quoran in an Islamic country falls under the latter. By that idiotic action the soldier placed his fellow soldiers in additional danger by creating a situation leading to resentment, thus aggravating an already unstable situation. I would be willing to bet the charge of conduct unbecoming COULD be made to stick. IMO it SHOULD be made to stick. Someone that self-indulgently stupid does not belong in the military.
 
Damn dude...........

Good Luck said:
I am not a military lawyer. I know the lay term - conduct unbecoming - but do not know the specific UCMJ code. That is for JAG, to whom I would have made my recommendation. Maybe JAG would not have pursued a court, maybe they would have. But I would have definitely recommended charges had that soldier been under my command.

Yes, we all did some dumb things when deployed. But there is dumb, and there is really fucking up. Shooting a Quoran in an Islamic country falls under the latter. By that idiotic action the soldier placed his fellow soldiers in additional danger by creating a situation leading to resentment, thus aggravating an already unstable situation. I would be willing to bet the charge of conduct unbecoming COULD be made to stick. IMO it SHOULD be made to stick. Someone that self-indulgently stupid does not belong in the military.
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You are Sgt. hard ass!!!...may I ask you a question ? Did you serve in combat? It is relevant since you are taking the hard ass approach..more like a 'Drill Sgt'
I will give you a example, as I jerk us cits chain from time to time...he got busted for striking a Lt...while in combat..and got some stockade time for it...I jumped his ass because I was a Sgt. then a Lt...after he explained why he hit the Lt...I excused his action as that of stress and being in combat..he was also excused by his Commander and returned to duty...this is a way more serious crime than you are alluding to about the target practice of a religious book...but circumstances leading to the action are sometimes mitigating circumstances...just ask us cit why he hit the Lt...I do believe you will change your mind ...I did!
 
Good Luck you might as well piss head first into a strong wind. Don't you know BB is always right and when you disagree with him you are ALWAYS wrong. For the rest of us that live in the real world, you are right.

But to help with which articles this mental midget could be tried under for shooting the Koran:

892. ART. 92. FAILURE TO OBEY ORDER OR REGULATION
Any person subject to this chapter who--

(1) violates or fails to obey any lawful general order or regulation;

(2) having knowledge of any other lawful order issued by any member of the armed forces, which it is his duty to obey, fails to obey the order; or

(3) is derelict in the performance of his duties;

shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

This is the MOST used article of the UCMJ. Of the 7 soldiers our office has represented, 4 of them were charged under this article as well as others. Not only that but when you are in a foriegn country you are obligated to obey the laws of that country as well and when the UCMJ doesn't have a specific there is always Art. 134. which states as follows:

Though not specifically mentioned in this chapter, all disorders and neglects to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces, all conduct of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces and crimes and offenses not capital, of which persons subject to this chapter may be guilty, shall be taken cognizance of by a general, special or summary court-martial, according to the nature and degree of the offense, and shall be punished at the discretion of that court.

It is quite telling that you and I, who so disagreed on the issue of the use of the Iwo Jima photo both see that the acts of this E-6 brings great discredit on himself, his unit and the United States Army. And the fact that this guy was actually an E-6 and not some new soldier really makes it offensive. But don't expect BB to see any of this.
 
Good Luck said:
I am not a military lawyer. I know the lay term - conduct unbecoming - but do not know the specific UCMJ code. That is for JAG, to whom I would have made my recommendation. Maybe JAG would not have pursued a court, maybe they would have. But I would have definitely recommended charges had that soldier been under my command.

Yes, we all did some dumb things when deployed. But there is dumb, and there is really fucking up. Shooting a Quoran in an Islamic country falls under the latter. By that idiotic action the soldier placed his fellow soldiers in additional danger by creating a situation leading to resentment, thus aggravating an already unstable situation. I would be willing to bet the charge of conduct unbecoming COULD be made to stick. IMO it SHOULD be made to stick. Someone that self-indulgently stupid does not belong in the military.
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I shudder to think BB was in law enforcement.

Good call GL, This soldier had been briefed on the country he was deploying to and KNEW better. If you read the article he claimed he did not know the book was a koran. He knew that was his best defense. The guy knew what he was doing and doing so did endanger his fellow soldiers.
 
And you counselor..........

Socrtease said:
Good Luck you might as well piss head first into a strong wind. Don't you know BB is always right and when you disagree with him you are ALWAYS wrong. For the rest of us that live in the real world, you are right.

But to help with which articles this mental midget could be tried under for shooting the Koran:

892. ART. 92. FAILURE TO OBEY ORDER OR REGULATION
Any person subject to this chapter who--

(1) violates or fails to obey any lawful general order or regulation;

(2) having knowledge of any other lawful order issued by any member of the armed forces, which it is his duty to obey, fails to obey the order; or

(3) is derelict in the performance of his duties;

shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

This is the MOST used article of the UCMJ. Of the 7 soldiers our office has represented, 4 of them were charged under this article as well as others. Not only that but when you are in a foriegn country you are obligated to obey the laws of that country as well and when the UCMJ doesn't have a specific there is always Art. 134. which states as follows:

Though not specifically mentioned in this chapter, all disorders and neglects to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces, all conduct of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces and crimes and offenses not capital, of which persons subject to this chapter may be guilty, shall be taken cognizance of by a general, special or summary court-martial, according to the nature and degree of the offense, and shall be punished at the discretion of that court.

It is quite telling that you and I, who so disagreed on the issue of the use of the Iwo Jima photo both see that the acts of this E-6 brings great discredit on himself, his unit and the United States Army. And the fact that this guy was actually an E-6 and not some new soldier really makes it offensive. But don't expect BB to see any of this.
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are talking out of your arse once again...as I stated in my diatribe with GL it is in the Commanders descretion to take into consideration mitigating circumstances...this soldiers Commander accepted the apology by this soldier, ..he chose not to pursue a general court martial as the alleged offense did not warrant such action! Your attempt to place a wedge between me and Good Luck is duly noted ...!
 
Well I shudder to think...........

Desh said:
I shudder to think BB was in law enforcement.

Good call GL, This soldier had been briefed on the country he was deploying to and KNEW better. If you read the article he claimed he did not know the book was a koran. He knew that was his best defense. The guy knew what he was doing and doing so did endanger his fellow soldiers.
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you are a mother...! Piss off bison breath!
 
Battleborne said:
You are Sgt. hard ass!!!...may I ask you a question ? Did you serve in combat? It is relevant since you are taking the hard ass approach..more like a 'Drill Sgt'
I will give you a example, as I jerk us cits chain from time to time...he got busted for striking a Lt...while in combat..and got some stockade time for it...I jumped his ass because I was a Sgt. then a Lt...after he explained why he hit the Lt...I excused his action as that of stress and being in combat..he was also excused by his Commander and returned to duty...this is a way more serious crime than you are alluding to about the target practice of a religious book...but circumstances leading to the action are sometimes mitigating circumstances...just ask us cit why he hit the Lt...I do believe you will change your mind ...I did!
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I served three tours of duty in Viet Nam. Was wounded on two separate occasions my second tour. Also was involved in Grenada, and spent a couple years in Lebanon. I met more than one butter bar that deserved my disrespect, if not a violent action. I managed to refrain.

I was, however, involved in an incident where a squad leader - buck sgt - struck his platoon leader with the butt of his rifle while in combat and was vindicated for his actions. Like you say, circumstances do make a difference.

You can call me a hard ass if you want. I expect the people under my command to show discipline - not only in following the orders given them, but in self conduct when dealing with and working with people of a different culture. Assuming you were in combat (as some of your posts imply) then you surely should recognize the need for strict discipline, both of the military kind and of the personal kind.

There IS a difference between combat conditions, and being in combat. If the soldier was conducting "target practice" he was most definitely not in actual combat. When a soldier -through complete and self-absorbed stupidity- acts in a manner which not only violates standing orders, not only shows extreme disrespect toward those we are trying to work with, but by showing that level of disrespect adds to the already high danger level experienced in the type of environment currently defined in Iraq, then that soldier has proven to me he is NOT a desirable member of the military. Military life in combat conditions is hard enough without stupid, selfish actions making it worse by making enemies of those we are supposedly fighting with and/or for.
 
Fair enough...!

Good Luck said:
I served three tours of duty in Viet Nam. Was wounded on two separate occasions my second tour. Also was involved in Grenada, and spent a couple years in Lebanon. I met more than one butter bar that deserved my disrespect, if not a violent action. I managed to refrain.

I was, however, involved in an incident where a squad leader - buck sgt - struck his platoon leader with the butt of his rifle while in combat and was vindicated for his actions. Like you say, circumstances do make a difference.

You can call me a hard ass if you want. I expect the people under my command to show discipline - not only in following the orders given them, but in self conduct when dealing with and working with people of a different culture. Assuming you were in combat (as some of your posts imply) then you surely should recognize the need for strict discipline, both of the military kind and of the personal kind.

There IS a difference between combat conditions, and being in combat. If the soldier was conducting "target practice" he was most definitely not in actual combat. When a soldier -through complete and self-absorbed stupidity- acts in a manner which not only violates standing orders, not only shows extreme disrespect toward those we are trying to work with, but by showing that level of disrespect adds to the already high danger level experienced in the type of environment currently defined in Iraq, then that soldier has proven to me he is NOT a desirable member of the military. Military life in combat conditions is hard enough without stupid, selfish actions making it worse by making enemies of those we are supposedly fighting with and/or for.
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We all see things differently in combat...and form opinions later on in life...you must take into consideration that the staff sgt alluded to in this discourse was a 'Sniper'...a different breed...I could never have done that job...way to personal...what he did was a reflection of his training to concentrate on the target...I believe his commander saw this and transferred him back to the states...imho!
 
Addendum:
I also served three terms as a drill instructor. Of those three years and 12 classes, my platoon won top honors 10 times. I set high expectations for my people in all places I was posted. And those high expectations were invariably met. Good people react well when given high demands. So, yea, I was a hard ass.

Being retired and a grandfather has softened me a little bit though.
 
Good Luck said:
Addendum:
I also served three terms as a drill instructor. Of those three years and 12 classes, my platoon won top honors 10 times. I set high expectations for my people in all places I was posted. And those high expectations were invariably met. Good people react well when given high demands. So, yea, I was a hard ass.

Being retired and a grandfather has softened me a little bit though.
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I rest my case...when one reflects on how they reacted in their youth always takes center stage in the Golden Years...:)
 
Battleborne said:
We all see things differently in combat...and form opinions later on in life...you must take into consideration that the staff sgt alluded to in this discourse was a 'Sniper'...a different breed...I could never have done that job...way to personal...what he did was a reflection of his training to concentrate on the target...I believe his commander saw this and transferred him back to the states...imho!
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Obviously his CO saw things differently than I do. I just stated what I would do if a soldier under my command pulled such a bone headed stunt.

IMO, the reason there are such difficulties (since this is by far not the first, nor probably not the last incidence of those types of behavior) is due to a relaxation in expectations of military and personal discipline. We are too ready to excuse stupidity based on circumstances.

Set expectation high and they will be met by the vast majority, and those standards will be kept when the chips are down. Set them low, and the lower standards will only lead to trouble when strict personal discipline is most needed.
 
Battleborne said:
I rest my case...when one reflects on how they reacted in their youth always takes center stage in the Golden Years...:)
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What case? I was a hard ass because it produced results. If I were not retired, I'd still be as hard an ass at 60 as I was at 30.

Being a retired grandfather does not require me to be a hard ass.
 
Well...I disagree..........

Good Luck said:
Obviously his CO saw things differently than I do. I just stated what I would do if a soldier under my command pulled such a bone headed stunt.

IMO, the reason there are such difficulties (since this is by far not the first, nor probably not the last incidence of those types of behavior) is due to a relaxation in expectations of military and personal discipline. We are too ready to excuse stupidity based on circumstances.

Set expectation high and they will be met by the vast majority, and those standards will be kept when the chips are down. Set them low, and the lower standards will only lead to trouble when strict personal discipline is most needed.
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You are giving the proverbial textbook definition...what goes down in combat is way different...while I was a training Officer in Federal LE...I always told the new grads to forget what they learned at the academy and listen to their field training officer...after all... all that is taught at academies are from actual experience...does not always translate well in curriculem form..enough said!
 
Okee Dokee............

Good Luck said:
What case? I was a hard ass because it produced results. If I were not retired, I'd still be as hard an ass at 60 as I was at 30.

Being a retired grandfather does not require me to be a hard ass.
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'Once a Marine always a Marine'...sorry I was just Army...Cav dude...just spent 4yrs 2 months and twenty nine days active during the VN era...moved on to civilian life...but hey if ya want to die a hard ass...thats cool...not me!:cool:
 
Battleborne said:
You are giving the proverbial textbook definition...what goes down in combat is way different...while I was a training Officer in Federal LE...I always told the new grads to forget what they learned at the academy and listen to their field training officer...after all... all that is taught at academies are from actual experience...does not always translate well in curriculem form..enough said!
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I would say that three years in the bush, plus a variety of other deployments that put myself and my men under fire goes a bit beyond "textbook definitions."

Yes, combat is different. But it is different in a way that expectations of personal discipline should be HIGHER, not lowered. Lower expectations only gets people killed.
 
Well Gunny..............

Good Luck said:
I would say that three years in the bush, plus a variety of other deployments that put myself and my men under fire goes a bit beyond "textbook definitions."

Yes, combat is different. But it is different in a way that expectations of personal discipline should be HIGHER, not lowered. Lower expectations only gets people killed.
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Like Frank Sinatra sang...'I did it my way'..you do it your way I will do it my way on forums...all is good...don't ya think?:)
 
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