When Does Life End?

Let's test it. I'll strangle Watermark and he can tell us when he dies. ;) <- This is the just kidding emoticon for those people who are going to take offense and pretend they believe I'd really do that.
 
RStringfield said:
Which one do you want to use?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dead

Main Entry: 1dead
Pronunciation: \ˈded\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English deed, from Old English dēad; akin to Old Norse dauthr dead, deyja to die, Old High German tōt dead — more at die
Date: before 12th century

1 : deprived of life : no longer alive
2 a (1) : having the appearance of death : deathly <in a dead faint> (2) : lacking power to move, feel, or respond : numb b : very tired c (1) : incapable of being stirred emotionally or intellectually : unresponsive <dead to pity> (2) : grown cold : extinguished <dead coals>
3 a : inanimate, inert <dead matter> b : barren, infertile <dead soil> c : no longer producing or functioning : exhausted <a dead battery>
4 a (1) : lacking power or effect <a dead law> (2) : no longer having interest, relevance, or significance <a dead issue> b : no longer in use : obsolete <a dead language> c : no longer active : extinct <a dead volcano> d : lacking in gaiety or animation <a dead party> e (1) : lacking in commercial activity : quiet (2) : commercially idle or unproductive <dead capital> f : lacking elasticity <a dead tennis ball> g : being out of action or out of use <the phone went dead>; specifically : free from any connection to a source of voltage and free from electric charges h (1) : being out of play <a dead ball> (2) : temporarily forbidden to play or to make a certain play in croquet
5 a : not running or circulating : stagnant <dead water> b : not turning <the dead center of a lathe> c : not imparting motion or power although otherwise functioning <a dead rear axle> d : lacking warmth, vigor, or taste
6 a : absolutely uniform <a dead level> b (1) : unerring (2) : exact <dead center of the target> (3) : certain to be doomed <he's dead if he's late for curfew> (4) : irrevocable <a dead loss> c : abrupt <brought to a dead stop> d (1) : complete, absolute <a dead silence> (2) : all-out <caught it on the dead run>
7 : devoid of former occupants <dead villages>
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I suggest 1. It's certainly not 3.
 
I don't agree. I don't think 1 covers it. The best definition is simply the absence of life. Legally we define the absence of brain activity as the absence of life.

But if you like I will just go back and amend...

Is it? When does that usually start?

I understand your point and think it has merit but in some babies the brain will not develop at all. And if it is not alive until that begins it is not alive at conception.
 
RStringfield said:
I don't agree. I don't think 1 covers it. The best definition is simply the absence of life. Legally we define the absence of brain activity as the absence of life.

But if you like I will just go back and amend...

Is it? When does that usually start?

I understand your point and think it has merit but in some babies the brain will not develop at all. And if it is not alive until that begins it is not alive at conception.
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You don't have to agree but the fact it that an egg is alive, a sperm is alive and a resulting zygote is alive. You are degrading your own argument about brain function by stubbornly insisting otherwise.
 
Southern Man said:
You don't have to agree but the fact it that an egg is alive, a sperm is alive and a resulting zygote is alive. You are degrading your own argument about brain function by stubbornly insisting otherwise.
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And we do not protect the life of eggs or sperm. Are you suggesting we should?

I have no problem with what you are saying from a scientific perspective but we are talking about legal definitions which are based on philosophy. Unless you are arguing that sperm and egg should be protected you understand and accept the distinction.
 
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PostmodernProphet said:
most women don't know they are pregnant at SIX weeks......that is the point at which the first signals of the developing brain can be identified.....
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Nope, I figured you were going to argue this, but there is no valid source for this claim. It is a factoid passed around by pro-lifers.
 
RStringfield said:
Nope, I figured you were going to argue this, but there is no valid source for this claim. It is a factoid passed around by pro-lifers.
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well that's an easy way to win an argument.....just claim it isn't true.....I don't accept your rejection.....case settled, no abortions after five weeks....next debate?....let me ask you this......what causes a heart to beat?.....
 
PostmodernProphet said:
well that's an easy way to win an argument.....just claim it isn't true.....I don't accept your rejection.....case settled, no abortions after five weeks....next debate?....let me ask you this......what causes a heart to beat?.....
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You have not provided a source. I was supposed to discredit an unknown source? You simply made a claim. I can counter that easily with just another claim.
 
RStringfield said:
I think it may be more illuminating to the abortion debate to consider when life ends than begins.

A person lacking brain activity is considered dead. There is no measurable brain activity until 20 weeks. How can human life have begun when it is legally dead?
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Your premise is factually untrue. The life of the unborn is always developing. The brain dead are in no such state. The dead brain will not develope and or renew itself. The brain of the unborn is forming, growing and developing along a continuuum.

Further, growth of the entire fetus cannot happen if the brain was not active at some level. Brain death would prevent development of the fetus.
 
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What does brain activity have to do with the life or death of the body? Nothing?... Thats Right...
 
The exact moment of death is almost impossible to determine...scientifically....

The exact moment of life beginning is relatively easy to determine....it IS the moment the sperm and the egg join....from then on it is only a matter of growing, developing, and maturing until old age and death of the body....
 
Ice Dancer said:
Your premise is facually untrue. The life of the unborn is always developing. The brain dead are in no such state. The dead brain will not develope and or renew itself. The brain of the unborn is forming, growing and developing along a continuuum.
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What was factually untrue?

Ice Dancer said:
Further, growth of the entire fetus cannot happen if the brain was not active at some level. Brain death would prevent develoement of the fetus.
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Do you have a source for this. Are you arguing the brain is present at conception?
 
bravo said:
What does brain activity have to do with the life or death of the body? Nothing?... Thats Right...
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As was explained the lack of brain activity is sufficient to determine death. Are you arguing that the brain dead are alive and should be kept on life support?
 
RStringfield said:
And we do not protect the life of eggs or sperm. Are you suggesting we should?

I have no problem with what you are saying from a scientific perspective but we are talking about legal definitions which are based on philosophy. Unless you are arguing that sperm and egg should be protected you understand and accept the distinction.
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Actually we do protect eggs and sperm. If you were to steal a man's sperm or a woman's eggs, or injured the person so they could no longer make them, you would be prosecuted for a crime. Yet a woman who gets pregnant with a man's sperm can then turn around and kill the unborn baby, and the man has no legal recourse.
 
RStringfield said:
As was explained the lack of brain activity is sufficient to determine death. Are you arguing that the brain dead are alive and should be kept on life support?
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Your premise is wrong. The brain is developing, therefore there is brain activity. Perhaps your argument involves cognizance.
 
Southern Man said:
Actually we do protect eggs and sperm. If you were to steal a man's sperm or a woman's eggs, or injured the person so they could no longer make them, you would be prosecuted for a crime. Yet a woman who gets pregnant with a man's sperm can then turn around and kill the unborn baby, and the man has no legal recourse.
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So abortion should be illegal because a man has a property right in his sperm? :)
 
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