When seconds count: Stopping active killers

Solitary said:
Running away to another neighborhood is not the point I made at all.

If you look at the places where the crips and bloods have power, they are typically the poorests areas. The violence in those neighborhoods is not the only reason people want to get out. If they have a chance to leave that sort of poverty and squalor, they will do so at the first opportunity. There is nothing cowardly about that. Its called taking care of your family. Safer neighborhoods, better schools, and better jobs are not found in the realm of the crips and bloods.


I am not sure what point you are making with the martyrdom of Tommy Chong. Personal liberties are important to me and to most of my fellow "gunnies".
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The point is, is you don't want to address the fact that there is a problem and that freedom carries a responsibility to address those problems in the area of gun control (by the way....other than a Marine, what the hell is a gunnie?) the NRA is irresponsible as hell and is part of the problem and not part of the solution duping fools who think they are protecting their freedoms.
 
Mottleydude said:
The point is, is you don't want to address the fact that there is a problem and that freedom carries a responsibility to address those problems in the area of gun control (by the way....other than a Marine, what the hell is a gunnie?) the NRA is irresponsible as hell and is part of the problem and not part of the solution duping fools who think they are protecting their freedoms.
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The problem with your argument is the same as any pro gun control argument. You focus on gun ownership as if it were the source of the problems you address. Ownership has nothing to do with it. Criminal will engage in criminal activity. Ownership of firearms does not enable that, nor encourage it, nor change it one way or the other. The example of the massacre in Mexico went right over your head - very strict control of firearms and they STILL have more trouble than we do with violent crimes involving firearms.

The central point of this thread also went right over your head. The study, done by law enforcement agencies, indicate that an armed populace will do far more to curb these acts of random violence we are having than trying to keep firearms out of criminal hands by limiting legal ownership.

And you also completely ignored the refutation of your criticism of NRA. The NRA spends far more time, effort, and money on firearms safety and training programs than they have ever spent on political activity in favor of 2nd amendment rights. The REAL reason you do not like the NRA is because you disagree with their views. That's fine. There are a lot of organizations out there I disagree with also. But at least be honest about it.

But let's explore the position of the NRA on firearms and gun control laws. First, any law that limits the right of law abiding citizens is a bad law. Period. And don't EVEN try the usual brainless "I suppose people should have nucs, too" bull shit. We are talking about FIREARMS. A nuc, bomb or any explosive device is NOT a firearm. No one is in danger from a legal owner of firearms, and that includes the so-called assault weapons. And the "you don't NEED...." argument does not fly either. First, the purpose of the 2nd Amendment is to keep our own government in check. To do that, IF it comes to that, we'll need more than single-shot hunting rifles. Second, since when are liberties based on "need"? Technically we don't NEED protection from unreasonable search and seizure (unless we do have something to hide...) Yet I despise the recent encroachments of that liberty. I am sure you do too. So why can you not understand being equally P.O.d about the encroachments on the 2nd Amendment supported by the democratic party in general, and Obama/Biden specifically?

Second, firearm registration is suspect. Reason: EVERY time throughout history, firearm registration has eventually led to firearm confiscation. Britain and Australia are recent, supposedly "free" countries which started with limited gun control which graduated into comprehensive registration, and eventually, recently, confiscation of a large list of banned weapons, leaving very little left that are legal to own. Why the hell should we trust our government to NOT do the same, some years down the road, when every single time comprehensive has been enacted it has resulted in confiscation?

Waiting periods: what do they accomplish? The last firearm I purchased I walked in, picked it out. The dealer had me fill out the form and present my two forms of ID, made a quick call on his cell phone to an LE agency for a background check, then took my money and I walked out with my new firearm. The point is the requirements to make sure I was not a criminal were fully satisfied, yet the transaction only took 15 minutes (mostly because I need to write kinda slow or my handwriting is unreadable) instead of 3-5 days the liberals want such a transaction to require.

The bottom line is the NRA fights all anti-firearms legislation because every time something gets passed, it only leads to more. It only leads to more because firearms control laws do not work, so when crime continues to rise in spite of laws in place, the reaction of those who passed the first laws is to demand more strict laws, which in turn do not work, leading to more that don't work in an endless cycle. That cycle will NOT be voluntarily abandoned by the leftists. Therefore it must be fought against at every level.
 
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Mottleydude said:
The point is, is you don't want to address the fact that there is a problem and that freedom carries a responsibility to address those problems in the area of gun control (by the way....other than a Marine, what the hell is a gunnie?) the NRA is irresponsible as hell and is part of the problem and not part of the solution duping fools who think they are protecting their freedoms.
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A "gunnie" is a marine, a naval gunners mate, or a gun buff. People like me who are fans of the history, the techical aspects, and the science of guns and ballistics.

Yes, freedom carries a responsibility. I am responsible for my life and the lives of those I have an impact on. I am responsible for taking care of myself and my family. I am responsible for helping those less fortunate than myself.

But I am not responsible for every lunatic that takes a human life.

There are roughly 63 million gun owners in the USA. There are about 15,000 murders annually, with about 70% of those having been committed with a firearm.

So if ALL the murders were committed by legal gun owners, then 0.00017% of the gun owners killed someone. And 99.99983% of the gun owners have not killed anyone.

In other words, 99.9998% of the gun owners are responsible citizens. And they are exercising their constitutional right to own a firearm.



No, the NRA is not irresponsible. They work hard to keep people from losing their rights to a knee jerk reaction to a tragedy.

They work hard to make sure all gun owners are responsible and safe gun owners.



You seem to think that restricting gun access by a law abiding citizen will stop criminals from committing crimes. Somehow you think someone willing to commit murder will be stopped by the threat of a gun possession charge.



Is the country safe? Absolutely not. A free society will never be safe. As long as people are free and have privacy, they have the capability of killing their fellow man.
 
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uscitizen said:
another good thing would be to teach your family to hug the ground/floor if they hear gun shots
//

Took me a while to unlearn that after Nam.
A sudden backfire or somesuch and you might see me on the ground.
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i was out on a large charter fishing boat and lightening struck close by and about half of the people of the boat hit the deck (all were from places where people got shot at...)

oh, i was on the deck too
 
Mottleydude said:
Hey I agree that the second amendment is essential for not only protecting oneself, family and property but is essential for preserving our political liberties as well. I am also aware that many attempts at gun control are misguided and have unintended consequences.

My issue with organizations like the National Republican Association is that just because we have the freedom to bear arms doesn't mean we can bury our head in the sand and ignore the problems with violence that gun ownership in our society represent. Just as with freedom of speech, the right to bear arms is not an absolute right and we, as a society, have a moral responsibility to address the issue of gun violence in our society and how best to manage it.

With great freedoms comes grave responsibilities.
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in ca an extra ten years is added to a criminals sentence if they use a firearm in the commission of their crime
 
Mottleydude said:
Hey I agree that the second amendment is essential for not only protecting oneself, family and property but is essential for preserving our political liberties as well. I am also aware that many attempts at gun control are misguided and have unintended consequences.

My issue with organizations like the National Republican Association is that just because we have the freedom to bear arms doesn't mean we can bury our head in the sand and ignore the problems with violence that gun ownership in our society represent. Just as with freedom of speech, the right to bear arms is not an absolute right and we, as a society, have a moral responsibility to address the issue of gun violence in our society and how best to manage it.

With great freedoms comes grave responsibilities.
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I would place the moral responsibility right back in the laps liberal anti-gun movement. Placing limitations on legal ownership of firearms has been proven again and again and again and again and again and again. Yet whenever a high profile crime using firearms takes place, the FIRST place the idiots look at is limiting legal firearms possession.

Get it through your thick cement encrusted skulls: legal firearms possession is NOT the problem. You think the firearms used by Crips and Bloods are obtained LEGALLY? Pull your collective heads out or your bovine asses and wake up to reality. NRA and all those who support NRA are all for controlling criminal violence. But limiting legal possession of firearms is a failed method. Quit being a walking definition of insanity with your repeated attempts at gun control laws which only affect legal ownership. Those are the laws NRA fights against. The fact that it results in fighting 99.999% of gun control laws is more a referendum to those writing the useless laws than it is "irresponsibly" defending our liberties.

Want to control violent crime? Try putting violent criminals - especially homicidal violent criminal in fucking jail and KEEP the bastards there until they rot. Allowing a homicide to be pled down to 5 years (3 with time off for "good" behavior" is what is allowing violent crime to flourish. Over 90% of violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders. The obvious conclusion from that basic fact is that keeping violent criminal in jail would reduce violent crime by 90%. It's simple: control crime by controlling the criminals. Leave law abiding citizens - and our firearms - the hell alone.
 
Could anyone point me to a case where 30 people were killed in a single instance by a single gunman in a country with sensible laws that ban all hanguns, semiautomatic weapons, and assault rifles?

Thankyou.
 
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shootings


School shootings in the US:

United States
Name ↓ Location ↓ Date ↓ Year ↓ Death toll ↓
University of Texas at Austin massacre Austin, Texas, United States August 1 1966 17
Orangeburg massacre1 Orangeburg, South Carolina, United States February 8 1968 3
Kent State shootings1 Kent, Ohio, United States May 4 1970 4
Jackson State shootings1 Jackson, Mississippi, United States May 14-15 1970 2
California State University, Fullerton library massacre Fullerton, California, United States July 12 1976 7
Cleveland Elementary School shooting San Diego, California, United States January 29 1979 2
Parkway South Junior High School shooting Saint Louis, Missouri, United States January 20 1983 2
Cleveland Elementary School shooting Stockton, California, United States January 17 1989 6
University of Iowa shooting Iowa City, Iowa, United States November 1 1991 6
Lindhurst High School shooting Marysville, California, United States May 1 1992 4
Simon's Rock College of Bard shooting Great Barrington, Massachusetts, United States December 14 1992 2
Richland High School shooting Lynnville, Tennessee, United States November 15 1995 2
Frontier Junior High shooting Moses Lake, Washington, United States February 2 1996 3
Hetzel Union Building shooting State College, Pennsylvania, United States September 17 1996 1
Bethel High School shooting Bethel, Alaska, United States February 19 1997 2
Pearl High School shooting Pearl, Mississippi, United States October 1 1997 3
Heath High School shooting West Paducah, Kentucky, United States December 1 1997 3
Westside Middle School shooting Jonesboro, Arkansas, United States March 24 1998 5
Parker Middle School shooting Edinboro, Pennsylvania, United States April 24 1998 1
Thurston High School shooting Springfield, Oregon, United States May 21 1998 4
Columbine High School massacre Littleton, Colorado, United States April 20 1999 15
Heritage High School shooting Conyers, Georgia, United States May 20 1999 0
Buell Elementary School shooting Mount Morris Township, Michigan, United States February 29 2000 1
Santana High School shooting Santee, California, United States March 5 2001 2
Granite Hills High School shooting El Cajon, California, United States March 22 2001 0
Appalachian School of Law shooting Grundy, Virginia, United States January 16 2002 3
Red Lion Area Junior High School shootings Red Lion, Pennsylvania, United States April 24 2003 2
Case Western Reserve University shooting Cleveland, Ohio, United States May 9 2003 1
Rocori High School shootings Cold Spring, Minnesota, United States September 24 2003 2
Fairleigh Dickinson University shooting Florham Park, New Jersey, United States April 4 2004 1
Red Lake High School massacre Red Lake, Minnesota, United States March 21 2005 10
Campbell County High School shooting Jacksboro, Tennessee, United States November 8 2005 1
Pine Middle School shooting Reno, Nevada, United States March 14 2006 0
Essex Elementary School shooting[11] Essex, Vermont, United States August 24 2006 2
Platte Canyon High School shooting Bailey, Colorado, United States September 27 2006 2
Weston High School shooting Cazenovia, Wisconsin, United States September 29 2006 1
Amish school shooting Nickel Mines, Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, United States October 2 2006 6
Virginia Tech massacre Blacksburg, Virginia, United States April 16 2007 33
Delaware State University shooting Dover, Delaware, United States September 21 2007 1
SuccessTech Academy shooting Cleveland, Ohio, United States October 10 2007 1
Louisiana Technical College shooting Baton Rouge, Louisiana, United States February 8 2008 3
Mitchell High School shooting Memphis, Tennessee, United States February 11 2008 0
E.O. Green School shooting Oxnard, California, United States February 12 2008 1
Northern Illinois University shooting DeKalb, Illinois, United States February 14 2008 6
Central High School shooting Knoxville, Tennessee, United States August 21 2008 1
University of Central Arkansas shooting Conway, Arkansas, United States October 27 2008 2
Dillard High School shooting Fort Lauderdale, Florida, United States November 12 2008 1





School shootings in all other areas worldwide:

Worldwide
Name Location Date/Year Notes
Ma'alot massacre Ma'alot, Israel May 15, 1974 [20]
Raumanmeri school shooting Rauma, Finland January 24, 1989 [21]
Aarhus University Shooting Aarhus, Denmark April 4, 1994 [22]
Dunblane massacre Dunblane, Scotland, March 13, 1996 [23]
Sanaa massacre Sanaa, Yemen March 30, 1997 [24]
University of the Philippines shooting Quezon City, Philippines February 19, 1999 [25]
Erfurt massacre Erfurt, Germany April 26, 2002 [26]
Monash University shooting Melbourne, Australia October 21, 2002 [27]
Pak Phanang school shooting Nakhon Si Thammarat, Thailand June 6, 2003 [28]
Coburg Shooting Coburg, Germany July 3, 2003 [29]
Beslan school hostage crisis Beslan, Russia September 1, 2004 [30]
Islas Malvinas School Carmen de Patagones, Argentina September 28, 2004 [31]
Geschwister Scholl School attack Emsdetten, Germany November 20, 2006 [32]
Beirut Arab University shooting Beirut, Lebanon January 25, 2007 [33]
Jokela school shooting Tuusula, Finland November 7, 2007 [34]
Euro International school shooting Gurgaon, India December 12, 2007 [35]
Mercaz HaRav shooting Jerusalem, Israel March 6, 2008 [36]
Kauhajoki school shooting Kauhajoki, Finland September 23, 2008 [37]
 
Wow our single country has about three times the number of school shootings as the rest of the world combined.
 
ib1yysguy said:
Wow our single country has about three times the number of school shootings as the rest of the world combined.
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You should be jolly grateful that you have the FREEDOM to shoot schoolchildren on a whim.

The rest of the world can only dream.
 
Good Luck said:
I would place the moral responsibility right back in the laps liberal anti-gun movement. Placing limitations on legal ownership of firearms has been proven again and again and again and again and again and again. Yet whenever a high profile crime using firearms takes place, the FIRST place the idiots look at is limiting legal firearms possession.

Get it through your thick cement encrusted skulls: legal firearms possession is NOT the problem. You think the firearms used by Crips and Bloods are obtained LEGALLY? Pull your collective heads out or your bovine asses and wake up to reality. NRA and all those who support NRA are all for controlling criminal violence. But limiting legal possession of firearms is a failed method. Quit being a walking definition of insanity with your repeated attempts at gun control laws which only affect legal ownership. Those are the laws NRA fights against. The fact that it results in fighting 99.999% of gun control laws is more a referendum to those writing the useless laws than it is "irresponsibly" defending our liberties.

Want to control violent crime? Try putting violent criminals - especially homicidal violent criminal in fucking jail and KEEP the bastards there until they rot. Allowing a homicide to be pled down to 5 years (3 with time off for "good" behavior" is what is allowing violent crime to flourish. Over 90% of violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders. The obvious conclusion from that basic fact is that keeping violent criminal in jail would reduce violent crime by 90%. It's simple: control crime by controlling the criminals. Leave law abiding citizens - and our firearms - the hell alone.
Click to expand...

There you go again. More Ostrich policy. Ignore the problem, don't take any responsibility for it, it will go away. That's the National Republican Association in action. Pretty much parallels conservative attitudes on sex education.
 
Mottleydude said:
Well how the else you gonna maintain discipline in school? Take away their milk?
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Mrs Thatcher took away my milk...the evil witch that she was :(

Whilst a child i thought it preferable to being shot.

As an adult i'd not be averse to blowing the kneecaps off a troublesome or persistently tardy youth. However, i'm not a barbarian and would only advocate pistol whipping for children under the age of seven.
 
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