Where America's jobs went

[Bfgrn]

And its corporate america's fault that the skills are no longer passed down? It is Walmart's fault that today's workers can't find their ass with both hands and a flashlight??

Sorry, try laying this one squarely at the feet of our "No Winners & No Losers" style of education. The fault lies with an education system that allows failure and does not reward success.

It lies with an education system that has phased out teaching trades. Have you seen the fast food cash registers now? They have pictures of the items on them. Want to test the best we have to offer, next time you go in a store and pay cash, wait till they enter the amount you offer them, and then add the amount of change necessary to make it an even amount. For example, if its $15.72, offer them a $20 and AFTER they enter the $20 cash, offer them 22 cents. Or hell, even 72 cents. Watch the brain cells start smoking. And you want to pay that moron $30 and hour???

For what??



As for Walmart's stake in the neighborhood, the walmart in my hometown bought 30 computers for my kid's elementary school. And after the tornados in Tuscaloosa, Walmart offered free bottled water and ice to every rescue or aid agency that responded during the first week or two. Yeah, heartless aren't they?

Yes, it is corporate America's fault and the right wing garbage called Republicans who have been busting trade unions. Unions TEACH trades, in case you didn't know that. They have apprenticeship programs that teach and train workers in a skill.

Like I said before...It is truly sad that we were never taught the REAL lesson of the Boston Tea Party. Corporate tax breaks create monopolies and destroy community based economies. The Wal-Marting of America has created a shit load of British East India Companies. They offer us NOTHING but low paying jobs, cheap garbage goods and they eviscerated every small business, skill, and trade passed on from one generation to the next.

Our founding fathers could have had cheaper tea, but they were more concerned with protecting local merchants and preserving their community based economies. We didn't follow their lead, because we were never taught the REAL lessons of that event.

 

[apple0154]

A few comments.

When it comes to big business or locally owned mom and pop type businesses the people who ran the small businesses in the past were a different breed. Character. Reputation. Those things meant something back then.

For example, buy a product from a local electronics shop today. If there is a problem with it chances are the owners will do anything and everything not to take back the item back. Why? Because they can't afford to. They can't afford to swallow the profit on a sale. Big business, such as Costco, accept returns with few, if any, questions.

The same applies to Sears. If a dishwasher is a lemon Sears accepts the return of the item. If purchased from a small appliance shop the shop owner will continually try to fix it inconveniencing the purchaser.

I seldom deal with independent businesses or small business owners because my experience has been they are greedy. Very greedy. And it just doesn't make sense. How can a guy selling washers and dryers and fridges and stoves expect to make $80,000/yr (just putting out a number) when a guy doing the identical job at Sears is earning $40,000? To start with the little business owner is paying more for each item as he doesn't buy in bulk so where is his income coming from? Or put another way what entitles him to earn that income when the wages for doing the same job pay considerably less?

The same applies to all small businesses. A national, well-known home improvement company does not pay it's carpenters and electricians the salary a carpenter or electrician would earn who owned his own business so where or how is he making that extra money?

And lastly, consider how many small businesses go out of business leaving home owners with faulty products and services. For example, take a window installer. I did extensive research on them years ago when I required windows for a rental building. I checked through a government program that tracks small home repair businesses. Most window "businesses" consisted of a 15 year old rusty pick-up and a hammer! :lol: So much for suing the business. They simply go bankrupt.

Next spring they'd start up a new business. Put on a display at a Home Show. Get contracts. Do a sloppy job and if too many problems arose, declare bankruptcy. Meanwhile, they have collected the money from hard-working, decent folks and used it to pay their mortgage and buy a new car.

Small businesses that go bankrupt due to clients suing because of faulty workmanship should be subject to the same laws as people who receive other ill-gotten gains. The drug dealer forfeits his home if purchased from drug sales. The income tax evader will have their home auctioned off to pay the bill. The same idea should apply to small businesses. Any money they used from that business should be recoverable.

This idea of LLC or companies being separate from personal possessions is a recipe for scams.

Even Greenspan, Ex-fed Chairman, was notified by Brooksley Bourne that there was a problem with repackaged mortgages and Greenspan's reply was when enough people lost money others would not invest in them and any potential problem would straighten itself out. The good, old invisible hand. A philosophy based on scamming as many as possible before others caught on. How did that work for us?

Unfortunately, that's the philosophy many people claim to support. "Unfettered capitalism." Also, unfortunately, for the little businessman, big business is better at it so while small businesses want tax breaks and lower taxes they play into the hands of big business. While the "entrepreneur" believes he/she is on the road to riches and doesn't want to pay taxes to help the needy (after all, the needy are just lazy) big business is wiping the floor with them.

The local entrepreneur is going the way of the dodo. Why should people pay to support the $100k lifestyle of the local hardware store owner when he's doing the same job as the guy at Wal-Mart earning $25k? Why pay $150.00 for a bathroom tap set when Wal-Mart has it on sale at $75.00?

It's not all bad. As wages drop, there being fewer entrepreneurs in the community, there are fewer people willing and able to pay high prices for services. The dentist or the veterinarian has to adjust their rates to people earning less. One could look at it as a middle class adjustment.

"So, why adjust down instead of up", some may ask. The answer is because of the rest of the world. The world has to become united in the sense of a level playing field. While wages in developing countries are increasing those in developed countries have to decrease in order to meet.

The only unresolved problem is sufficiently taxing the wealthy. It's the disparity between people that cause the problem, not the jobs/wages, per se.

 

[WinterBorn]

I generaly like you because of your war with Dammed Yankee, but you really should research the Waltons and Walmart's business philosophy a bit before advocating for them so, especialy from a seemingly local only perspective. Their destruction has run the gamut, from downtown to manufacturers.

I am not so much pro-Walmart as I am against this anti-corporation nonsense. The best thing ever to come out of walmart is "People Of Walmart" webpage.

 

[Annie]

I am not so much pro-Walmart as I am against this anti-corporation nonsense. The best thing ever to come out of walmart is "People Of Walmart" webpage.

I'm trying to get into Walmart or Aldi's. Right now I'm working at Walgreen's a big corp, though not Walmart. Walgreen's pays minimum wage for IL, $8.25. Walmart starts at $9. Aldi's at $9.25. Well I made more in high school in the 70's, but it is what it is. Right now, I'm glad to be employed at Walgreen's.

 

[Rune]

A few comments.

When it comes to big business or locally owned mom and pop type businesses the people who ran the small businesses in the past were a different breed. Character. Reputation. Those things meant something back then.

For example, buy a product from a local electronics shop today. If there is a problem with it chances are the owners will do anything and everything not to take back the item back. Why? Because they can't afford to. They can't afford to swallow the profit on a sale. Big business, such as Costco, accept returns with few, if any, questions.

The same applies to Sears. If a dishwasher is a lemon Sears accepts the return of the item. If purchased from a small appliance shop the shop owner will continually try to fix it inconveniencing the purchaser.

I seldom deal with independent businesses or small business owners because my experience has been they are greedy. Very greedy. And it just doesn't make sense. How can a guy selling washers and dryers and fridges and stoves expect to make $80,000/yr (just putting out a number) when a guy doing the identical job at Sears is earning $40,000? To start with the little business owner is paying more for each item as he doesn't buy in bulk so where is his income coming from? Or put another way what entitles him to earn that income when the wages for doing the same job pay considerably less?

The same applies to all small businesses. A national, well-known home improvement company does not pay it's carpenters and electricians the salary a carpenter or electrician would earn who owned his own business so where or how is he making that extra money?

And lastly, consider how many small businesses go out of business leaving home owners with faulty products and services. For example, take a window installer. I did extensive research on them years ago when I required windows for a rental building. I checked through a government program that tracks small home repair businesses. Most window "businesses" consisted of a 15 year old rusty pick-up and a hammer! :lol: So much for suing the business. They simply go bankrupt.

Next spring they'd start up a new business. Put on a display at a Home Show. Get contracts. Do a sloppy job and if too many problems arose, declare bankruptcy. Meanwhile, they have collected the money from hard-working, decent folks and used it to pay their mortgage and buy a new car.

Small businesses that go bankrupt due to clients suing because of faulty workmanship should be subject to the same laws as people who receive other ill-gotten gains. The drug dealer forfeits his home if purchased from drug sales. The income tax evader will have their home auctioned off to pay the bill. The same idea should apply to small businesses. Any money they used from that business should be recoverable.

This idea of LLC or companies being separate from personal possessions is a recipe for scams.

Even Greenspan, Ex-fed Chairman, was notified by Brooksley Bourne that there was a problem with repackaged mortgages and Greenspan's reply was when enough people lost money others would not invest in them and any potential problem would straighten itself out. The good, old invisible hand. A philosophy based on scamming as many as possible before others caught on. How did that work for us?

Unfortunately, that's the philosophy many people claim to support. "Unfettered capitalism." Also, unfortunately, for the little businessman, big business is better at it so while small businesses want tax breaks and lower taxes they play into the hands of big business. While the "entrepreneur" believes he/she is on the road to riches and doesn't want to pay taxes to help the needy (after all, the needy are just lazy) big business is wiping the floor with them.

The local entrepreneur is going the way of the dodo. Why should people pay to support the $100k lifestyle of the local hardware store owner when he's doing the same job as the guy at Wal-Mart earning $25k? Why pay $150.00 for a bathroom tap set when Wal-Mart has it on sale at $75.00?

It's not all bad. As wages drop, there being fewer entrepreneurs in the community, there are fewer people willing and able to pay high prices for services. The dentist or the veterinarian has to adjust their rates to people earning less. One could look at it as a middle class adjustment.

"So, why adjust down instead of up", some may ask. The answer is because of the rest of the world. The world has to become united in the sense of a level playing field. While wages in developing countries are increasing those in developed countries have to decrease in order to meet.

The only unresolved problem is sufficiently taxing the wealthy. It's the disparity between people that cause the problem, not the jobs/wages, per se.

Wow, what an annoying post.

 

[The Dude]

bfged you calling all corporations unethicle is like me call you the dropout a criminal.

 

[/MSG/]

Sorry, try laying this one squarely at the feet of our "No Winners & No Losers" style of education. The fault lies with an education system that allows failure and does not reward success.

It lies with an education system that has phased out teaching trades. Have you seen the fast food cash registers now? They have pictures of the items on them. Want to test the best we have to offer, next time you go in a store and pay cash, wait till they enter the amount you offer them, and then add the amount of change necessary to make it an even amount. For example, if its $15.72, offer them a $20 and AFTER they enter the $20 cash, offer them 22 cents. Or hell, even 72 cents. Watch the brain cells start smoking. And you want to pay that moron $30 and hour???

Tghe education system has for the longest time been developed to put out two kinds of people. Assembly line workers who are not skilled and are cogs in a machine, or government workers/soldiers who are not skilled in any particular way and serve only to further project the power of the government during the big 50 years of Red Fear.

 

[Lowaicue]

Would that it was as simple as many think. The game, like any game, consists of players and usually referees.
The players in this little game are, each one, as big as small and semi medium sized countries. These players make the laws by which the rest of us must abide. They must produce at the best possible profit so YOU (the share holder) get your dividend twice a year or whatever.
They must produce cheap goods or YOU (the customer) will not buy their goods.
The referee, of course, is a member of their team and will red card anything that gives YOU an even break.
In times of full employment and healthy economies, outsourcing to less expensive production lines overseas, is good for the economy. Yes it bloody well is! Read David Ricardo and the law of comparative advantage.
So in the end, moving production around the globe to take advantage of cheaper production while releasing home workers to make more profitable goods must be good. But, as I said before, the ref is in their pockets. Get a ref who can enforce tax laws to the benefit of the opposing team (that's you) and you'll be getting there. By that I do NOT mean increasing taxation rates, necessarily. I mean closing the loopholes that allow Haliburton et al to move its HO (though not its operation) to the Middle East and avoid some or all of its tax obligation. (this from memory. I am sure that someone will put me right if I am wrong in the time honoured way of insult and partisan puffery).
Mrs Thatcher, that creature of evil who governed us and who hopefully will finally shuffle off ere the year is out, introduced her 'kitchen cabinet', an out and out con to make simple people believe that economics was a matter of receiving the pay packet on a Friday and being careful so there was enough left for Thursday's dinner. Many in America, are in grave danger of being similarly hoodwinked. Not, I think, by your goverment, but from your loony right wing press and presidential candidates.
Don't worry, America. Just go shopping!

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Over regulation by the gov't has had a big hand in sending jobs overseas, but you won't take credit for that one, will you?

These corporations that you hate so much and want to use as a scapegoat? Now you want them to stay? Isn't that convenient? I guess having your cash-cow and ready-made scapegoat disappear makes your blame game a bit tough, doesn't it?

As long as you see corporations as the adversary, and your liberal gov't policies make our gov't work against big business too, they will continue to bail out.

That's an urban legend Winter. The cost of regulation is a fraction of what the cost of labor is. Do you need a lecture on the cost of deregulation? The great recession is almost purely due to either a lack of regulation in the market place or because regulations weren't enforced. That lack of regulation/enforcement cost the American people trillions of dollars in lost money.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

Wow, what an annoying post.

quite funny how you don't like it and Bfgrn 'groaned' it. I mean, we all know APPLE is a far right wing nut.... so who cares if he tells it like it is. He must be a right wing nut since he disagreed with your warped sense of reality.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

That's an urban legend Winter. The cost of regulation is a fraction of what the cost of labor is. Do you need a lecture on the cost of deregulation? The great recession is almost purely due to either a lack of regulation in the market place or because regulations weren't enforced. That lack of regulation/enforcement cost the American people trillions of dollars in lost money.

Over regulation most certainly DID and DOES play a huge part in shipping jobs overseas. That and over-taxation.

That said, you are correct, deregulation via Clinton's repeal of Glass Steagall most certainly led to the financial collapse. Odd that your messiah didn't put it back in place even with Dem super majorities. They didn't even attempt to put it back in place.

The two comments of mine above show why SOME regulation is necessary to protect the consumer, but that too much regulation can harm it. Funny how that works.... just like most things, some is good, too much is bad.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Over regulation most certainly DID and DOES play a huge part in shipping jobs overseas. That and over-taxation.

That said, you are correct, deregulation via Clinton's repeal of Glass Steagall most certainly led to the financial collapse. Odd that your messiah didn't put it back in place even with Dem super majorities. They didn't even attempt to put it back in place.

The two comments of mine above show why SOME regulation is necessary to protect the consumer, but that too much regulation can harm it. Funny how that works.... just like most things, some is good, too much is bad.

I didn't say that. I said it was a fraction of the cost of what labor is. Corporations may or may not leave due to what they percieve as excessive taxes or regulations but it's a gamble. Those "other places" have other costs, such as lack of infrastructure or education or even the lack of a pro-business regulatory framework that creates a level playing field or are just flat out corrupt, that often brings them right back here. Those costs are significant but they pale compared to the cost of labor which is the largest expense any company has and is the primary reason that jobs are outsourced, well that and and US companies are trying to penetrate foreign markets and it doesn't make sense to do that from an operational position on another continent. I do essentially agee with you about the proper balance of regulation, forget about the blame game, in todays world that's what affective government is essentially about, providing balance in regards to the appropriate level of services and regulation.

 

[Rune]

quite funny how you don't like it and Bfgrn 'groaned' it. I mean, we all know APPLE is a far right wing nut.... so who cares if he tells it like it is. He must be a right wing nut since he disagreed with your warped sense of reality.

Wut?

 

[Bfgrn]

quite funny how you don't like it and Bfgrn 'groaned' it. I mean, we all know APPLE is a far right wing nut.... so who cares if he tells it like it is. He must be a right wing nut since he disagreed with your warped sense of reality.

Tells it like it is? Her post is parochial, naive and does not represent what has really happened in America over the last 50 years. Yes, we have some cheaper consumer goods, in price AND quality. But with it, we have sacrificed community based economies, jobs, trades, skills and wages. The kid in the Wal-Mart hardware apron doesn't know a paint stirring stick from a yardstick. Knowledge, advice and CUSTOMER SERVICE have become extinct. And to add insult to injury, because those Wal-Mart jobs are low paying, a 200-employee Wal-Mart store may cost federal taxpayers $420,000 per year because of the need for federal aid (such as housing assistance, tax credits, and health insurance assistance) for Wal-Mart's low-wage employees.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

Tells it like it is? Her post is parochial, naive and does not represent what has really happened in America over the last 50 years. Yes, we have some cheaper consumer goods, in price AND quality. But with it, we have sacrificed community based economies, jobs, trades, skills and wages. The kid in the Wal-Mart hardware apron doesn't know a paint stirring stick from a yardstick. Knowledge, advice and CUSTOMER SERVICE have become extinct. And to add insult to injury, because those Wal-Mart jobs are low paying, a 200-employee Wal-Mart store may cost federal taxpayers $420,000 per year because of the need for federal aid (such as housing assistance, tax credits, and health insurance assistance) for Wal-Mart's low-wage employees.

1) I could have sworn apple was a guy... could be wrong....
2) The quality of goods in the US is far higher than it was in the 1980's
3) You keep using Walmart as an example of a hardware store. You may have some funky WalMarts by you, but ours do not delve into hardware/home repair etc... for those people go to Lowes or Home Depot, where you get the same type of low price with high quality advice.
4) Customer service is going to be different at each individual store. It is very good at the Wal Mart I go to.
5) Wal Mart jobs are not designed for rocket scientists. They are lower paying jobs to be sure as they require little to no skill to acquire. That is how it is supposed to work. If you pay a very low/no skill worker $30 hour... what do you suppose the high skill workers will demand?
6) What do you think the mom and pop shops of old paid their workers? Do you think they paid top dollar? Do you think they offered health care? Yes, many of Wal Marts workers are going to be in low income brackets and thus need assistance. Just as they would if they were working for any other company in a position that requires little to no skill to do.

 

[Bfgrn]

1) I could have sworn apple was a guy... could be wrong....
2) The quality of goods in the US is far higher than it was in the 1980's
3) You keep using Walmart as an example of a hardware store. You may have some funky WalMarts by you, but ours do not delve into hardware/home repair etc... for those people go to Lowes or Home Depot, where you get the same type of low price with high quality advice.
4) Customer service is going to be different at each individual store. It is very good at the Wal Mart I go to.
5) Wal Mart jobs are not designed for rocket scientists. They are lower paying jobs to be sure as they require little to no skill to acquire. That is how it is supposed to work. If you pay a very low/no skill worker $30 hour... what do you suppose the high skill workers will demand?
6) What do you think the mom and pop shops of old paid their workers? Do you think they paid top dollar? Do you think they offered health care? Yes, many of Wal Marts workers are going to be in low income brackets and thus need assistance. Just as they would if they were working for any other company in a position that requires little to no skill to do.

I guess it is something you would have had to live through to see the stark differences. The Wal-Marting of America, which includes all the BIG that have crushed the numerous small has decimated our country IMO.

But here is where I see a HUGE amount of irony. Conservatives rail against BIG government, central planning and the concept of the 'fed'. They profess state rights, local governance and tout allegiance to the 'small businessman' as the engine of our economy.

BUT...when it comes to corporations, conservatives support the exact opposite... BIG corporations with their central planning are utopia...

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

I guess it is something you would have had to live through to see the stark differences. The Wal-Marting of America, which includes all the BIG that have crushed the numerous small has decimated our country IMO.

I did live through it. You truly have to stop assuming things about posters you know nothing about.

But here is where I see a HUGE amount of irony. Conservatives rail against BIG government, central planning and the concept of the 'fed'. They profess state rights, local governance and tout allegiance to the 'small businessman' as the engine of our economy.

BUT...when it comes to corporations, conservatives support the exact opposite... BIG corporations with their central planning are utopia...

You have shown time and again you have absolutely NO idea what conservatives want or 'stand for'.

 

[Bfgrn]

I did live through it. You truly have to stop assuming things about posters you know nothing about.



You have shown time and again you have absolutely NO idea what conservatives want or 'stand for'.

I have HEARD what conservatives stand for from their own mouths, policies and posts. You have shown time and again that you cannot admit when you have been cornered. If you hate BIG and central planning, WHY is it so desirable with corporations?

BTW, you mentioned the '80's...I am talking about the 50's and 60's...

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

I have HEARD what conservatives stand for from their own mouths, policies and posts. You have shown time and again that you cannot admit when you have been cornered. If you hate BIG and central planning, WHY is it so desirable with corporations?

No, you have HEARD what conservatives 'think' via left wing blogs and articles such as the complete nonsense you posted to start another thread.

I am not cornered in the least. Conservatives are not about 'big business' or 'small business', we are about a FREE market. Which means whomever survives is fine. Because normally it will be the fittest/strongest/most efficient companies that survive. You also fail in your either or scenario in that many of today's largest companies were once small businesses. They simply had the best business models and GREW as a result. THAT is what conservatives want to continue to support. Where was Microsoft in the early 80's relative to today? How about Google? How did IBM and Apple start out? The same holds true with every big firm. Some firms are franchised because that is the best model. Some are centralized. There is no cookie cutter approach that works in every industry.

Conservatives are against INEFFICIENT government programs and regulations. Not against ALL government programs and regulations as so many of you on the left like to proclaim. We are also against sticking future generations with OUR bills (and when I say WE, I mean actual fiscal conservatives, not the current Rep party).

BTW, you mentioned the '80's...I am talking about the 50's and 60's...

BTW... YOU mentioned the 'Wal-marting' of the country... FYI.... that began in earnest in the 1980's (which I lived through as I stated). Walmart did not exist in the 50's and only had a few stores outside of Arkansas in the late 1960's.

FYI... just so you don't go making any more assumptions... I am 40.

 

[Rune]

1) I could have sworn apple was a guy... could be wrong....
2) The quality of goods in the US is far higher than it was in the 1980's
3) You keep using Walmart as an example of a hardware store. You may have some funky WalMarts by you, but ours do not delve into hardware/home repair etc... for those people go to Lowes or Home Depot, where you get the same type of low price with high quality advice.
4) Customer service is going to be different at each individual store. It is very good at the Wal Mart I go to.
5) Wal Mart jobs are not designed for rocket scientists. They are lower paying jobs to be sure as they require little to no skill to acquire. That is how it is supposed to work. If you pay a very low/no skill worker $30 hour... what do you suppose the high skill workers will demand?
6) What do you think the mom and pop shops of old paid their workers? Do you think they paid top dollar? Do you think they offered health care? Yes, many of Wal Marts workers are going to be in low income brackets and thus need assistance. Just as they would if they were working for any other company in a position that requires little to no skill to do.

You are so full of shit I can smell you from here. Stop fucking lying.