Which is which?

midcan5 said:
Proof please.



Egad, I'm beginning to get into patterns of thought. I may need shock treatments or something like that. But your answer fits a discussion I have had on another site so well it amazes me. Instead of replying intelligently with a little thought, PPP does the same, you change the rules as a spoiled child does. Do you tell your teachers to give you tests that you can answer only? How dumb our nation is becoming continues to amaze me, but more than dumbness it is the inability to think hard.


Not one person can answer the thread question, WOW!
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I did reply intelligently. None of those questions have yes or no answers. An intelligent person can see that.

No, I did not tell the teachers any such thing... but they also were not ignorant enough to pose questions and then try to force us to choose between two answers that did not apply to the questions.

Side note: an intelligent person does not seek cookie cutter 'yes or no' answers. An intelligent person wants a detailed answer that provides the reasoning behind the responders position(s).
 
Superfreak said:
I did reply intelligently. None of those questions have yes or no answers. An intelligent person can see that.
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While I can't find the link where the answers were debated, I will post a brief answer I had saved. But answer before you read it.

------------

There was debate over whether the questions were too ambiguous to answer easily. While that is true, if you answered the first question yes, you should have some idea how to answer the others.

1. Do you understand your core values? Yes
2. Is liberty more important than equality? yes (this is still a puzzle for me)
3. Is the state necessary? Yes
4. Is government necessary? Yes
5. Are all values relative? No
6. Are rights more important than duties? debatable but I select yes
7. Have you ever regretted something you have done? Yes
8. Does the free market exist? No
9. Is welfare acceptable? Yes
10. Are you better than a homeless bum? No
11. Is the separation of church and state a good thing? Yes
12. Should societies attempt social justice? Yes
13. Do you read? Yes
14. Are poor people lazy? No
15. Should health care be available to all? Yes

Reasons

Most everyone got stuck on exceptions. 'It depends' was the key comment but if you are a leader at some point you have to make a choice. Can one really imagine modern life without a state/government? Is not personal responsibility a primary value? Show me that free market? Have you never known a family in need? Should society allow anything? Ever meet a hard working poor person? Healthcare for all - why not and who else would do it?

Two and six are the tough ones. At first I considered 2 and 6 either/or but I changed my mind on 2. Twelve is tough for some but imagine if no cop existed or no regulator or no law?

Five, eight, ten, and 14 are 'no.' (5) Individual responsibility is/should be a key value and individual freedom is required for that to exist. The right/conservative push to control our personal life runs counter to this very key American value. (8) the free market is an interesting abstraction / concept? but the actors who make it up do so mostly for self interest. These actors can act in anyway so the idea that other actors are free is a misconception. The free market is more a utopia than a reality. A market (without free) is an excellent solution but recognize its potential and problems too. (10) Anyone could end up homeless. (14) Some of the hardest working people I know are poor.

PS The reason #2 is still a puzzle for me is I have been reading more about Asian culture and belief systems.




"Freedom depends on how men actually do behave, not upon how they are allowed to behave. It is a matter of character, not of foolproof constitutional devices. For fools are paramount in politics, and there is nothing which they are unable to destroy." (p 156 The Liberal Mind Kenneth Minogue)

http://oll.libertyfund.org/Home3/Book.php?recordID=0089
 
Since no one challenged or attempted to answer the original question, I thought I would post a few draft statements I thought would be telling.

love
You love your child, but they have cheated on their taxes, you must turn them in to the authorities.
Love is possible between people of the same sex.
If you love people, you must work to make sure they have the same opportunities as you do.
If you are a Christian, morally you must work to make sure all people live well not just be born.
Religion is about love of people and not love of money.
Loving your country means you cannot criticize her.


history
The American Constitution allowed the South to secede from the Union.
American capitalism provides a level playing field for our citizens.
While immigration built this nation today we need to minimize immigration.
Racism is a thing of the past.
Overall Affirmative Action had positive results.
FDR is among the top five best presidents.
LBJ helped create a society where opportunity existed for all.

freedom
Can Freedom be both good and bad?
The invisible hand of the market works best when left alone.
Capitalism provides a fair work environment while socialism does not?
Is the free market the best mechanism for fair paying jobs?
 
Pffft, c’mon Midcan. Man, this is child’s play. You need a better brain-tease. ;-)

midcan5 said:
Thought exercise #2 Which is which?

There are two exclusions to make this interesting. All statements must be true or false.

You are in a chat room talking to a conservative and a liberal. You are allowed only one question to figure out which is which. The question must be about 'love' (Exclusion marriage). What is your statement/question?

Do you love Ronald Raygun?

You are in a chat room talking to a conservative and a liberal, the liberal voted for Obama, the conservative McCain. Same task as above, but this time the question must be about 'history' (exclusion American presidents). What is your question?

Was Dumbya's illegal invasion of Iraq one of the most catastrophic and ill-conceived disasters in American foreign policy history?

You are in a chat talking to a conservative, a libertarian and a liberal. Again you are allowed one question about 'freedom' to figure out each. What is your question?

Do you believe a woman has the right to make ALL of her own decisions pertaining to her reproductive organs?
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Cypress said:
Do you love Ronald Raygun?

Was Dumbya's illegal invasion of Iraq one of the most catastrophic and ill-conceived disasters in American foreign policy history?

Do you believe a woman has the right to make ALL of her own decisions pertaining to her reproductive organs?
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I exempted presidents, should have said everywhere. But clearly you demonstrate the point of the exercise. Reagan, Iraq, and abortion all define the person's ideology easily. So then while we pretend we are thinking, are we?

And thanks for answering, not one else would.


"Thought is a process of exaggeration. The refusal to exaggerate is not infrequently an alibi for the disinclination to think or praise." Eric Hoffer
 
midcan5 said:
I exempted presidents, should have said everywhere. But clearly you demonstrate the point of the exercise. Reagan, Iraq, and abortion all define the person's ideology easily. So then while we pretend we are thinking, are we?

And thanks for answering, not one else would.


"Thought is a process of exaggeration. The refusal to exaggerate is not infrequently an alibi for the disinclination to think or praise." Eric Hoffer
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Eric Hoffer has extremism confused with thought.
 
midcan5 said:
I exempted presidents, should have said everywhere. But clearly you demonstrate the point of the exercise. Reagan, Iraq, and abortion all define the person's ideology easily. So then while we pretend we are thinking, are we?

And thanks for answering, not one else would.


"Thought is a process of exaggeration. The refusal to exaggerate is not infrequently an alibi for the disinclination to think or praise." Eric Hoffer
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None of these define an ideology singly. You said that it must be one question. Any of these taken singly cannot define an entire ideology.
 
midcan5 said:
I exempted presidents, should have said everywhere. But clearly you demonstrate the point of the exercise. Reagan, Iraq, and abortion all define the person's ideology easily. So then while we pretend we are thinking, are we?

And thanks for answering, not one else would.


"Thought is a process of exaggeration. The refusal to exaggerate is not infrequently an alibi for the disinclination to think or praise." Eric Hoffer
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I provided a better answer than anyone else, including yourself. But continue to pat only liberals on the back if it suits you.

Also I feel obligated to point out the utter laughability of your "ruler questionare". In addition to the fact that every point in there is debatable, it makes you appear close-minded when you simply list some questions, answer them with your ideological dogma, and then proclaim that everyone else has answered them wrong.
 
midcan5 said:
I exempted presidents, should have said everywhere. But clearly you demonstrate the point of the exercise. Reagan, Iraq, and abortion all define the person's ideology easily.
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But your examples talk about LBJ & FDR. Is it ok if only the president's initials are used?


My answers to your test:

1. Does love of country equal patriotism?

2. Is the US Constitution a "living document" ?

3. Does the freedom of the individual outweight the needs of society?
 
WinterBorn said:
But your examples talk about LBJ & FDR. Is it ok if only the president's initials are used?

1. Does love of country equal patriotism?
2. Is the US Constitution a "living document" ?
3. Does the freedom of the individual outweight the needs of society?
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True, but I noted they were draft statements and I only exempted presidents from one category.

T - sure it does, but does criticism mean the opposite. Not sure this works.
T - this may work.
F - Complex but may work too. There is no individual without society.

As an afterthought, I find the quibbles interesting because the same people rarely quibble over other issues. So quibbles are really about the other person's opinions and not our own.

Sorry couldn't resist.

"The beginning of thought is in disagreement - not only with others but also with ourselves." Eric Hoffer
 
midcan5 said:
F - Complex but may work too. There is no individual without society.
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Wrong, individuals will exist so long as the human race does. They existed before societies began to form and evolve.

I think it absolutely insidious of people to denounce individualism in America, when it is such a unique occurence in the world. Its really not a gift that you need to try and stamp out when there are plenty of other lands out there to dominate with your will for individual subjection and cooperation.

The death of the individual will spell nothing but darkness and tyranny till the end of history. That you continue to spout this kind of rhetoric makes you a voice against freedom in all of its forms.
 
midcan5 said:
True, but I noted they were draft statements and I only exempted presidents from one category.

T - sure it does, but does criticism mean the opposite. Not sure this works.
T - this may work.
F - Complex but may work too. There is no individual without society.

As an afterthought, I find the quibbles interesting because the same people rarely quibble over other issues. So quibbles are really about the other person's opinions and not our own.

Sorry couldn't resist.

"The beginning of thought is in disagreement - not only with others but also with ourselves." Eric Hoffer
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The point of the exercise was to be able to determine the political leanings of two people by their answers to questions.

By and large, for conservatives the love of country equals patriotism. Whereas, liberals see love of country and patriotism as different things.

Again, the goal was to determine the political leanings of a person by how they answer a question. The view of the individual is one of the basic differences between liberals and conservatives.

You didn't ask for questions that have a right or wrong answer. You asked for questions that would allow us to determine the political leanings.
 
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