Why Is There Something, Rather Than Nothing?--Sean M. Carroll

Dutch Uncle said:
Agreed not magic. Randomness is an appearance, not a fact.

Consider the balls in a Bingo Ball machine. Given a powerful enough computer and sensors capable of reading the mass, velocity and position of each ball do you think the next Bingo number to emerge could be accurately predicted? I do. Ergo, not as random as it appears.

Would an impact event on the Earth be random or could it be predicted?
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No, randomness is a basic concept in physics. Evolution is based on randomness--as is the very existence of life on the planet.
 
American Man said:
It's not possible to conceive of nothingness except in an abstract sense. Even empty space is still something.
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We can then distinguish between two issues:

1. Why is there stuff? Why is there anything inside the universe, rather than just empty
space?

2. Why is there space at all? Why is there anything we would recognize as “a universe”?
For the first question, the relevant notion of “nothing” is “empty space,” while for the second
it is the non-existence of reality altogether. Clearly it’s the second question that most people
have in mind when the ask why there is something rather than nothing, but answers to the
first question (which are much easier to imagine obtaining) have often been passed off as
relevant to the second.
https://authors.library.caltech.edu/84903/1/1802.02231.pdf
 
BidenPresident said:
No, randomness is a basic concept in physics. Evolution is based on randomness--as is the very existence of life on the planet.
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Randomness = unpredictable. In science, it's more about the "X factor" rather than an unchangeable aspect of the Universe. One major X factor is "dark matter" and "dark energy".

Consider the case of Dr. Ignaz Semmelweis who, in the early 1840s and before Germ Theory, noticed a drastic difference in mortality rates between the Vienna Hospital's two teaching maternity wings: one for doctors and their students and one for midwives and their students. The Doctor wing had an infant mortality rate 3 times the number of the midwives wing. Randomness of disease? No. The Doctors also instructed students in autopsies and would go directly from cutting up a dead body to birthing kids without washing hands.

Dr. Semmelweis ordered the doctors to wash their hands after the autopsies and mortality rates dropped despite all the bitching and moaning from the Doctors. The mortality rates dropped to the level of the midwives wing for the next 10+ years.

Not random. Cause and Effect. It's just that they didn't really understand the cause (germs) but knew the effect (death) and lucked out on a solution.

Our understanding of the Universe is similar: There's things we understand and things we don't. Comets don't appear at random. They have a predictable orbit. Stars don't suddenly explode. Conditions have to be right for a nova. Our sun will swell to become a red giant, burn out the inner planets and then recede to become a white dwarf star. Predictable. Not random. Not magical.

https://www.history.com/news/hand-washing-disease-infection
Between 1840 and 1846, the maternal mortality rate for the midwives’ ward was 36.2 per 1000 births, while the mortality rate for the doctors’ ward was 98.4 per 1000 births, according to a 2013 article in the Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine. Specifically, the doctors’ ward had a higher rate of “childbed fever,” now known as streptococcal infection. Semmelweis started to look for any differences between the wards.
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https://www.space.com/22471-red-giant-stars.html
In approximately 5 billion years, the sun will begin the helium-burning process, turning into a red giant star. When it expands, its outer layers will consume Mercury and Venus, and reach Earth. Scientists are still debating whether or not our planet will be engulfed, or whether it will orbit dangerously close to the dimmer star. Either way, life as we know it on Earth will cease to exist.
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Dutch Uncle said:
Randomness = unpredictable. In science, it's more about the "X factor" rather than an unchangeable aspect of the Universe.
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Randomness is a fundamental feature of the universe. Not an "x factor."

"For example, an electron hitting an atom may bounce off in one of many directions, and it is normally impossible to predict in advance what the outcome in any given case will be. Quantum indeterminism implies that for a particular quantum state there are many (possibly infinite) alternative futures or potential realities. Quantum mechanics supplies the relative probabilities for each observable outcome, although it won't say which potential future is destined for reality."

http://www.physicsland.com/physics101_files/that mysterious flow - paul davies.pdf
 
BidenPresident said:
Randomness is a fundamental feature of the universe. Not an "x factor."

"For example, an electron hitting an atom may bounce off in one of many directions, and it is normally impossible to predict in advance what the outcome in any given case will be. Quantum indeterminism implies that for a particular quantum state there are many (possibly infinite) alternative futures or potential realities. Quantum mechanics supplies the relative probabilities for each observable outcome, although it won't say which potential future is destined for reality."

http://www.physicsland.com/physics101_files/that mysterious flow - paul davies.pdf
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Dude, Randomness = X factor.

X, the unknown.

While mankind may be incapable of discerning every variable in a physical event, do you agree that mankind will be able to discern enough variables to survive in the Universe? Or are must we forever remain a victim of randomness? The whimsy of the gods?
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Dude, Randomness = X factor.

X, the unknown.

While mankind may be incapable of discerning every variable in a physical event, do you agree that mankind will be able to discern enough variables to survive in the Universe? Or are must we forever remain a victim of randomness? The whimsy of the gods?
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Gods have nothing to do with the empirical concept of randomness.
 
BidenPresident said:
Gods have nothing to do with the empirical concept of randomness.
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Randomness is simply unknown factors which, when understood, are no longer random.

Example; the eruptions of volcanoes is not random nor do they suddenly blow. It's the probability of it's eruption can be predicted if it's sensored for data collection. Mount St. Helen's is an example.

https://web.archive.org/web/2012100...canoes/MSH/May18/MSHThisWeek/32228/32228.html

Agreed there's no magic. The rules of the Universe are set even if some are unknown to us at this point. Those rules will not randomly change nor will we randomly fly off this planet. There are rules to how the universe works. If something appears to be random, then the observer simply doensn't understand the rules dictating it's motion or energy state.

Your own quote stated "normally impossible". The caveat is that our top scientists don't understand why somethings do as they do. That doesn't mean they don't operate under rules or that those rules can't be understood.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Randomness is simply unknown factors which, when understood, are no longer random.

Example; the eruptions of volcanoes is not random nor do they suddenly blow. It's the probability of it's eruption can be predicted if it's sensored for data collection. Mount St. Helen's is an example.

https://web.archive.org/web/2012100...canoes/MSH/May18/MSHThisWeek/32228/32228.html

Agreed there's no magic. The rules of the Universe are set even if some are unknown to us at this point. Those rules will not randomly change nor will we randomly fly off this planet. There are rules to how the universe works. If something appears to be random, then the observer simply doensn't understand the rules dictating it's motion or energy state.

Your own quote stated "normally impossible". The caveat is that our top scientists don't understand why somethings do as they do. That doesn't mean they don't operate under rules or that those rules can't be understood.
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They understand randomness. It is a basic feature of the universe. We are not in a deterministic universe Newton imagined.
 
BidenPresident said:
They understand randomness. It is a basic feature of the universe. We are not in a deterministic universe Newton imagined.
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Which is the crux of this entire discussion, isn't it? LOL

I'm not pushing a deterministic universe. I'm pushing a Universe that operates by rules. The key to divining all the secrets of the Universe is simply understanding the rules. You mentioned the research into quantum mechanics; there's a lot of unknowns there. Do you doubt that humankind, given enough time, will learn all that can be known about quantum mechanics?

If a rule exists, then it can be discovered.

Don't you believe that human beings are soulless ambulatory meat computers operating on biochemical programming, both genetically and externally? If so, then why does a simple mechanical view of the Universe conflict with that view?

It's one thing to know the physics of billiard balls and how they'll move when struck. It's more difficult to determine which way a human will influence it.

The human factor on the physical universe is more evident in draw poker where the math is easier. Once again, the human factor influences the outcome such as one player drawing on an inside straight with only one card instead of tossing three cards. Unbeknownst to the players, this changes the entire dynamic of the game as the choice ripples to other players. While seemingly random to a casual player, it's not. The randomness factor is a human being, not a fundamental law of the Universe.
 
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BidenPresident said:
No, I don't believe that. Nor do I believe "God did it" is an answer to anything.
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We already agreed that the randomness factor you are clinging to is not caused by magic yet you disagree with me that randomness are merely unknowns in a knowable universe. Why?
 
BidenPresident said:
How do you prove it is perfectly ordered? Compared to what?
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Extrapolation. Everything we know about the universe falls within the laws of physics. While there are some odd things going on with sub-atomic particles, so what? "A difference that makes no difference is no difference". It won't change how you and I live at the moment.

Maybe understanding that stuff will allow a mankind faster-than-light travel/warp space, but that's just unraveling another unknown. It doesn't affect your or my survival, the remainder of our lives or our eventual deaths.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Extrapolation. Everything we know about the universe falls within the laws of physics. While there are some odd things going on with sub-atomic particles, so what? "A difference that makes no difference is no difference". It won't change how you and I live at the moment.

Maybe understanding that stuff will allow a mankind faster-than-light travel/warp space, but that's just unraveling another unknown. It doesn't affect your or my survival, the remainder of our lives or our eventual deaths.
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Speaking of Leibniz, he rejected Newton's determinism. Determinism was never proven to be true. And the modern discovery of measurable randomness helps explain why.
 
BidenPresident said:
Speaking of Leibniz, he rejected Newton's determinism. Determinism was never proven to be true. And the modern discovery of measurable randomness helps explain why.
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What do you mean by "Newton's determinism"? That Newton's Laws of Motion don't apply?


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BidenPresident said:
Randomness is a fundamental feature of the universe. Not an "x factor."

"For example, an electron hitting an atom may bounce off in one of many directions, and it is normally impossible to predict in advance what the outcome in any given case will be. Quantum indeterminism implies that for a particular quantum state there are many (possibly infinite) alternative futures or potential realities. Quantum mechanics supplies the relative probabilities for each observable outcome, although it won't say which potential future is destined for reality."

http://www.physicsland.com/physics101_files/that mysterious flow - paul davies.pdf
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The quantum wave function, like many mathematical concepts in science, is probabilistic.

I have never heard a scientist say that a system of probabilistic mathematics is equivalent to a truly random system.

Quantum mechanics and quantum theory is only generally relevant for the subatomic scale.

At the scale of cosmic bodies, and the scale of visible, real life objects, traditional deterministic laws of mechanics work perfectly fine.
 
Cypress said:
The quantum wave function, like many mathematical concepts in science, is probabilistic.

I have never heard a scientist say that probabilistic mathematics is equivalent to a truly random system.

Quantum mechanics and quantum theory is only generally relevant for the subatomic scale.

At the scale of cosmic bodies, and the scale of visible, real life objects, traditional deterministic laws of mechanics work perfectly fine.
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Okay.
 
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