Why Is There Something, Rather Than Nothing?--Sean M. Carroll

[Dutch Uncle]

The quantum wave function, like many mathematical concepts in science, is probabilistic.

I have never heard a scientist say that a system of probabilistic mathematics is equivalent to a truly random system.

Quantum mechanics and quantum theory is only generally relevant for the subatomic scale.

At the scale of cosmic bodies, and the scale of visible, real life objects, traditional deterministic laws of mechanics work perfectly fine.

Agreed. It's a theory not a known quantity. Personally, I lean toward the Hidden-variable theory.

The Universe is predictable therefore not random. It exists in accordance with physical laws, both known and some still unknown.

 

[Cypress]

Agreed. It's a theory not a known quantity. Personally, I lean toward the Hidden-variable theory.

The Universe is predictable therefore not random. It exists in accordance with physical laws, both known and some still unknown.

for sure

If we cannot find patterns, laws, and predictable relationships in the universe, I am not sure what the point of doing science would be.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

for sure

If we cannot find patterns, laws, and predictable relationships in the universe, I am not sure what the point of doing science would be.

Exactly. Science goes by the assumption that the secrets of the Universe can be revealed through study. I agree.

Although I’m not quite sure, it seems BP is seeking to extrapolate “random” appearing behavior of subatomic particles to events in our daily lives.

My wife and I disagree on the modern concept around “the power of prayer”; she believes and I’m more of a Ben Franklin fan: “God helps those who help themselves”.

IMO, God created the Universe with rules and it would be cheating, therefore unGodlike, to violate those rules.

 

[Cypress]

Exactly. Science goes by the assumption that the secrets of the Universe can be revealed through study. I agree.

Although I’m not quite sure, it seems BP is seeking to extrapolate “random” appearing behavior of subatomic particles to events in our daily lives.

My wife and I disagree on the modern concept around “the power of prayer”; she believes and I’m more of a Ben Franklin fan: “God helps those who help themselves”.

IMO, God created the Universe with rules and it would be cheating, therefore unGodlike, to violate those rules.

I think prayer can have a psychological benefit for some people, and that's fine. Obviously, there is no demonstrable proof of it's efficacy.


I actually think your statement leads to other important philosophical questions:

where do the physical laws and mathematical relationships of the universe come from? Why is there order rather than chaos?

Why did the universe start out in a low entropy state?


There is no crystal clear reason why it had to be that way.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I think prayer can have a psychological benefit for some people, and that's fine. Obviously, there is no demonstrable proof of it's efficacy....

Absolutely on the psychological effect and disagreed on proving it's efficacy. I'll look it up for data, but any calming of the mind maximizes the person's ability to reason.

This is seen more in Catholicism with citing Hail Mary's as penance; repeating a phrase over and over again is meditation. Saying 10 Hail Marys** is no different psychologically/meditatively than saying 10 Om Mani Padme Hums.

Repeating a phrase is a means to focus the mind in meditation. Counting rosary beads works too. https://www.wikihow.com/Meditate




**Hail, Mary, full of grace,
the Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou amongst women
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

...I actually think your statement leads to other important philosophical questions:

where do the physical laws and mathematical relationships of the universe come from? Why is there order rather than chaos?

Why did the universe start out in a low entropy state?

There is no crystal clear reason why it had to be that way.

A lot of those questions are unanswerable since they are outside the rules of the Universe.

If we look at "Life, the Universe and Everything" as a game like Monopoly, questioning the reasons for making the game is a lot different, and often unknown, compared to learning the rules of the game.

IMO, the answer could simply be boredom and an eternal entity temporarily subdivides part of itself to play much like a little girl plays with dolls. Who knows? While the answer may be found in quantum physics, for most of us it doesn't affect our part in "the game".

My advice is similar is similar to Pascal's: Just play the game as best possible. The end will come soon enough.

 

[Cypress]

Absolutely on the psychological effect and disagreed on proving it's efficacy. I'll look it up for data, but any calming of the mind maximizes the person's ability to reason.

This is seen more in Catholicism with citing Hail Mary's as penance; repeating a phrase over and over again is meditation. Saying 10 Hail Marys** is no different psychologically/meditatively than saying 10 Om Mani Padme Hums.

Repeating a phrase is a means to focus the mind in meditation. Counting rosary beads works too. https://www.wikihow.com/Meditate




**Hail, Mary, full of grace,
the Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou amongst women
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.

I agree that is has meditative/psychological value for the individual.

What I was trying to say is that I do not think it is proven that prayer effects external outcomes.
My cousin prayed for her husband's safety all the time, as his job required him to globe trot around the planet. There is no proof her prayers added to his safety. But I am sure it gave her some peace of mind

 

[Trumpet]

It's not possible to conceive of nothingness except in an abstract sense. Even empty space is still something.

Empty space is what's between your ears, if you need to be told.

 

[Cypress]

A lot of those questions are unanswerable since they are outside the rules of the Universe.

If we look at "Life, the Universe and Everything" as a game like Monopoly, questioning the reasons for making the game is a lot different, and often unknown, compared to learning the rules of the game.

IMO, the answer could simply be boredom and an eternal entity temporarily subdivides part of itself to play much like a little girl plays with dolls. Who knows? While the answer may be found in quantum physics, for most of us it doesn't affect our part in "the game".

My advice is similar is similar to Pascal's: Just play the game as best possible. The end will come soon enough.

Fair point.

I like to work on my golf game as much as the next guy, but by temperament, disposition, and academic training I am drawn to the Deep questions about life and the nature of reality.

The questions above are clearly not answerable in my lifetime. And they may even be forever beyond the reach of human cognitive faculties.

They are not beyond the reach of conjecture though.

Lot's of really smart people have speculated as to the reasons for the underlying nature of physical laws and universal mathematical relationships. And if science taught me anything, it is that creative conjecture can possibly ultimately lead to testable hypotheses.

 

[Cypress]

Okay.

But I understand the angle you were playing: quantum field theory undermines the assumption of a universe of purely deterministic laws held by pre-20th century scientists

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I agree that is has meditative/psychological value for the individual.

What I was trying to say is that I do not think it is proven that prayer effects external outcomes.
My cousin prayed for her husband's safety all the time, as his job required him to globe trot around the planet. There is no proof her prayers added to his safety. But I am sure it gave her some peace of mind

There is zero evidence of supernatural occurrences. Zero. Nada. Zippo. Nothing. No telekinesis, telepathy, clairvoyance, etc

As such, no amount of prayers or sacrifices, human or otherwise, could affect the outcome of future events by forces that do not exist.

While I very much believe there is more to existence than what we are experiencing in this mortal coil, for all practical purposes, what happens in our mortal existence is temporarily isolated from that greater existence.

IMO, we're in a WYSIWYG universe although what happens to our essence, our "soul", after cessation of our mortal existence remains a large unknown.

I do not believe any supernatural forces are allowed to interfere. Which means people who believe "the Devil made me do it" are passing blame and refusing to accept personal responsibility for their actions.

For those with Netflix, I finished "Midnight Mass" a few days ago. It was a very good 7-part series which takes "personal choice" to a different level.

"It doesn't change who we are". Great quote.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Fair point.

I like to work on my golf game as much as the next guy, but by temperament, disposition, and academic training I am drawn to the Deep questions about life and the nature of reality.

The questions above are clearly not answerable in my lifetime. And they may even be forever beyond the reach of human cognitive faculties.

They are not beyond the reach of conjecture though.

Lot's of really smart people have speculated as to the reasons for the underlying nature of physical laws and universal mathematical relationships. And if science taught me anything, it is that creative conjecture can possibly ultimately lead to testable hypotheses.

Agreed. They are philosophical questions, not practical application questions that science can answer.

Agreed too that, at some point, those philosophical questions and science may meet, possibly somewhere on the quantum level.

 

[BidenPresident]

Agreed. They are philosophical questions, not practical application questions that science can a

Randomness is empirical, proven by laboratory experiments. It is not speculation.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Randomness is empirical, proven by laboratory experiments. It is not speculation.

Please explain how it works.

 

[BidenPresident]

Please explain how it works.

Another example:

"Einstein's startling conclusion stems directly from his special theory of relativity, which denies any absolute, universal significance to the present moment. According to the theory, simultaneity is relative. Two events that occur at the same moment if observed from one reference frame may occur at different moments if viewed from the former."
--Paul Davies, " "That Mysterious Flow"


From relativity, we can see that time as simultaneous events cannot be measured. Not the same as randomness, but establishes the conceptual framework.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Another example:

"Einstein's startling conclusion stems directly from his special theory of relativity, which denies any absolute, universal significance to the present moment. According to the theory, simultaneity is relative. Two events that occur at the same moment if observed from one reference frame may occur at different moments if viewed from the former."
--Paul Davies, " "That Mysterious Flow"


From relativity, we can see that time as simultaneous events cannot be measured. Not the same as randomness, but establishes the conceptual framework.

That's not randomness; that's relativity.

Example: You're on the Moon and drop a hammer. I, with a very powerful telescope, sees it happen 1.3 seconds later. That is perceptual reality. In one reality, you actually dropped the hammer at a certain time, but in my perceptual reality it was later. Which is real? Your's of course. To be accurate I have to apply the X factor of the speed of light.

Note that light speed is constant. It's not random.

Random, again, is perceptual oddities with no current explanation.

 

[BidenPresident]

That's not randomness; that's relativity.

I know, what I said. But relativity is related. If there is no measure for two different frames of reference then one event measured by each will not be the same. Random means that no exact measure in time exists.

 

[BidenPresident]

Please explain how it works.

The word uncertainty is used a lot in quantum mechanics. One school of thought is that this means there’s something out there in the world that we are uncertain about. But most physicists believe nature itself is uncertain.

Intrinsic uncertainty was central to the way German physicist Werner Heisenberg, one of the originators of modern quantum mechanics, presented the theory.

He put forward the Uncertainty Principle that showed we can never know all the properties of a particle at the same time.

https://theconversation.com/quantum...t-about-uncertainty-in-a-certain-sense-118456

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I know, what I said. But relativity is related. If there is no measure for two different frames of reference then one event measured by each will not be the same. Random means that no exact measure in time exists.

My apologies for appearing otherwise. I'm saying everything physical can be measured. Spiritual not so much.

The variables in relativity are the speed of light and gravity. Note that in the different frames of reference that one is the actual truth and the other is the perception of the truth. Once the latter corrects for the speed of light variable, they would know the actual truth of when the hammer was dropped.

As mentioned with Dr. Semmelweis earlier, he perceived that the infant mortality rate wasn't simply random bad luck. He perceived that it was the difference between how newborns were treated in each wing. Randomness = an unknown variable. Solve for X.

Please name an instance where Randomness is truly and completely unpredictable. Something that matters to humans, not just particles acting oddly.

"A difference that makes no difference is no difference"...well, except to quantum physicists. LOL

 

[evince]

I have no problem conceiving nothingness, seems pretty straightforward.

The argument by Leibniz is that God had a choice whether to create a world or not. That nothingness is inferior to something is why God made the universe lo.
Some would argue that it logically impossible for there to be just nothingness--I don't agree.

If there was a god deciding between the two options that means the nothingness idea is flawed


There was a god

Not nothingness