why we need a middle class tax cut... SPREAD THE WEALTH AROUND

We are a socialist state, thanks to a progressive tax system and a gluttony of entitlement programs.

Anyone who doesn't run on a platform of abolishing these institutions is technically a "socialist". The only real difference between John McCain and Obama's socialist philosophies is how extreme they are.

If caring for the poor, not wanting a disatrous economy, and not wanting a return to feudalism is socialist, then I'm a socialist. And there'd be nothing in the world better to be. It's kind of crazy that you think so highly of them, that you'd compliment them so.
 
Rhetoric such as "spreading the wealth around" and responses such as "fairness" when asked why he wants to raise captial gains taxes even though its shown to bring in less revnue makes people question his economic policies.

That's completely and totally untrue. The capital gains cut led to a short term boost in revenues, mainly because of the wild and reckless investing it encouraged. When the shit hit the fan, the revenues fell to a level they hadn't seen since the 80's, and we still haven't climbed back up to that level. Encouraging recklessness is one reason why extremist neo-liberal free marketeerism has always failed completely every time it's been tried. In Sweden, they've completely wiped out child poverty. It doesn't exist. In America, it's at 20%. I hope you enjoy working for your feudal lords.
 
That's completely and totally untrue. The capital gains cut led to a short term boost in revenues, mainly because of the wild and reckless investing it encouraged. When the shit hit the fan, the revenues fell to a level they hadn't seen since the 80's, and we still haven't climbed back up to that level. Encouraging recklessness is one reason why extremist neo-liberal free marketeerism has always failed completely every time it's been tried. In Sweden, they've completely wiped out child poverty. It doesn't exist. In America, it's at 20%. I hope you enjoy working for your feudal lords.

Actually the info comes from your boy Charlie Gibson during a Hillary/Obama debate. Obama didn't try to question the information he went into his 'fairness' spiel. I know you don't like to hear it. That's part of the beauty of youth.
 
Solitary, your taxes would probably double and the riches would be next to nothing.

The Fair Tax Act calls for a 20% to 23% tax on all new goods and services. I am already paying more than that.

And the rich? They would pay the same percentage on all their purchases.
 
The Fair Tax Act calls for a 20% to 23% tax on all new goods and services. I am already paying more than that.

And the rich? They would pay the same percentage on all their purchases.

The tax is 30%. The tax inclusive rate they advertise is a lie. Ever purchase you make will have a 30% increase on the price tag.

And since the rich have most of their money invested, they almost never pay. Their effective tax rate is dramatically cut.

Whenever something sounds to good to be true, Sol, it is. A tax system can't simultaneously slash taxes on the middle class, upper class, and lower class and be revenue neutral. Use some fucking ACTUAL common sense. And these flat tax and fair taxers have been the worst information distributors in history. They lie constantly. It's sickening. They are getting the middle class to support the largest middle class tax increase in history, something even most of the upper class oppose because it would be so disastrous.
 
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The tax is 30%. The tax inclusive rate they advertise is a lie. Ever purchase you make will have a 30% increase on the price tag.

And since the rich have most of their money invested, they almost never pay. Their effective tax rate is dramatically cut.

The studies I have seen show the tax at 23% at the most.

Care to show where you got 30%? The places that have higher tax percentages also have some things that are tax exempt. That is not part of the FT Act.

Investing money is a good thing, and yet people like you want it taxed to the limits so you can get something from it.

If we didn't tax savings, it would provide a good incentive to save. If we didn't tax investments it would provide good incentives to invest.
 
The studies I have seen show the tax at 23% at the most.

Care to show where you got 30%? The places that have higher tax percentages also have some things that are tax exempt. That is not part of the FT Act.

Investing money is a good thing, and yet people like you want it taxed to the limits so you can get something from it.

If we didn't tax savings, it would provide a good incentive to save. If we didn't tax investments it would provide good incentives to invest.

If we didn't tax income it would provide good incentive to make income. Why should we prioritize investors and others who don't actually earn income? You can't have your cake and eat it to. No one should be treated as special, and yet that's what you want to do. You want to treat the rich as special, and you want to make the poor dirt poor and tax them at a rate they have no ability to pay. I want to tax people based on ability to pay. No fairer tax system has ever been made than the simplicity of the bare progressive tax system without the millions of deduction.

It's the truth. They use an accounting trick to get the 23% rate. If you take something, increase it's price by 30%, and then take the percentage of the price tag the tax is, it will be 23%. It's a lie.
 
Again, the flat tax, the fair tax. The poor pay less, the rich pay MUCH MUCH less, and the middle class makes up the difference. Your taxes will go through the roof.
 
If we didn't tax income it would provide good incentive to make income. Why should we prioritize investors and others who don't actually earn income? You can't have your cake and eat it to. No one should be treated as special, and yet that's what you want to do. You want to treat the rich as special, and you want to make the poor dirt poor and tax them at a rate they have no ability to pay. I want to tax people based on ability to pay. No fairer tax system has ever been made than the simplicity of the bare progressive tax system without the millions of deduction.

It's the truth. They use an accounting trick to get the 23% rate. If you take something, increase it's price by 30%, and then take the percentage of the price tag the tax is, it will be 23%. It's a lie.

Investors don't earn an income? They provide the capital for businesses to start, to expand, and to grow. They risk their money (money they EARNED) by letting other people use it to build their businesses.

Its not an accounting trick. The accounting trick is that you think the income tax is the only way you pay taxes. Roughly 20% of the price of everything you buy is already taxes. Its the taxes that manufacturers pay. Its the taxes that businesses pay.

You are taxed when you earn the money. You are taxes when you spend the money. And you are taxed if you save the money or invest the money (with a few exceptions that lock your money up).

As for the poor being taxed in ways they cannot pay, that is simply your ignorance of the Fair Tax Act. No one (read it again - No One) will pay taxes on the necessities. There will be a prebate for every registered family that equals the 23% tax on all monies up to the poverty level.



Go here and actually read what the Fair Tax Act is about instead of listening to the idiots who have no comprehension of what it is.

http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer

Look at the letter to the President and Congress from 80 independent economists concerning the Fair Tax Act.
 
Investors don't earn an income? They provide the capital for businesses to start, to expand, and to grow. They risk their money (money they EARNED) by letting other people use it to build their businesses.

Its not an accounting trick. The accounting trick is that you think the income tax is the only way you pay taxes. Roughly 20% of the price of everything you buy is already taxes. Its the taxes that manufacturers pay. Its the taxes that businesses pay.

You are taxed when you earn the money. You are taxes when you spend the money. And you are taxed if you save the money or invest the money (with a few exceptions that lock your money up).

As for the poor being taxed in ways they cannot pay, that is simply your ignorance of the Fair Tax Act. No one (read it again - No One) will pay taxes on the necessities. There will be a prebate for every registered family that equals the 23% tax on all monies up to the poverty level.



Go here and actually read what the Fair Tax Act is about instead of listening to the idiots who have no comprehension of what it is.

http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer

Look at the letter to the President and Congress from 80 independent economists concerning the Fair Tax Act.

http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2007/08/the-deceptive-p.html

The Deceptive Presentation of the FairTax Proposal

Bruce Bartlett says when you read the fine print and uncover the deceptions, the FairTax proposal is far less attractive then its supporters woudl have you believe:

FairTax, Flawed Tax, by Bruce Bartlett, Commentary, WSJ [Update: open link]: Former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee's unexpectedly strong second-place showing in the recent Iowa Republican straw poll is widely attributed to his support for the FairTax.

For those who never heard about it, the FairTax is a national retail sales tax that would replace the entire current federal tax system. ...

Rep. John Linder (R., Ga.) and Sen. Saxby Chambliss (R., Ga.) have introduced legislation ... to implement the FairTax. They assert that a rate of 23% would be sufficient to replace federal individual and corporate income taxes as well as payroll and estate taxes. Mr. Linder's Web site claims that U.S. gross domestic product will rise 10.5% the first year after enactment, exports will grow by 26%, and real investment spending will increase an astonishing 76%.

In reality, the FairTax rate is not 23%. Messrs. Linder and Chambliss get this figure by calculating the tax as if it were already incorporated into the price of goods and services. ...[T]hink of it this way. If a product costs $1 at retail, the FairTax adds 30%, for a total of $1.30. Since the 30-cent tax is 23% of $1.30, FairTax supporters say the rate is 23% rather than 30%.

This is only the beginning of the deceptions in the FairTax. Under the Linder-Chambliss bill, the federal government would have to pay taxes to itself on all of its purchases of goods and services. Thus if the Defense Department buys a tank that now costs $1 million, the manufacturer would have to add the FairTax.... The tank would then cost the federal government $300,000 more than it does today, but its tax collection will also be $300,000 higher.

This legerdemain is done solely to make revenues under the FairTax seem larger than they really are, so that its supporters can claim that it is revenue-neutral. ...

Similarly, state and local governments would have to pay the FairTax on most of their purchases. This means that it is partly financed by higher state and local taxes. ...

State sales taxes have long exempted all but a few services because of the enormous difficulty in taxing intangibles. But the FairTax would apply to 100% of services, including medical care, thus increasing their cost by 30%. No state comes close to taxing services so broadly. Consumers would also find themselves taxed on newly constructed homes. Imagine paying 30% ... on top of the purchase price...

Since sales taxes are regressive ... some provision is needed to prevent a vast increase in taxation on the nonwealthy. The FairTax does this by sending monthly checks to every household based on income. Aside from the incredible complexity and intrusiveness of tracking every American's monthly income ... the FairTax does not include the cost of this rebate in the tax rate. ...

Rejecting all the tricks of FairTax supporters and calculating the tax rate honestly ... professional revenue estimators have always concluded that a national retail sales tax would have to be much, much higher than 23%.

A 2000 estimate by Congress's Joint Committee on Taxation found the ... rate would be 57%. In 2005, the U.S. Treasury Department calculated that a ... rate of 34% would be needed just to replace the income tax, leaving the payroll tax in place. ...

Perhaps the biggest deception in the FairTax, however, is its promise to relieve individuals from having to file income tax returns, keep extensive financial records and potentially suffer audits. Judging by the emphasis FairTax supporters place on the idea of making April 15 just another day, this seems to be a major selling point for their proposal.

Yet all but six states now have state income taxes. So unless one lives in one of those states, this promise is an empty one indeed. In short, the FairTax is too good to be true, and voters should not take seriously any candidate who supports it.
 
That's what you are arguing for Sol.

A national sales tax of 50% on every item sold in the US, along with several accounting tricks to make it seem revenue neutral.
 
http://www.fairtax.org/PDF/080204-TuerckRebuttalOfBartlett.pdf

This link is on the main page of the website I tried to have you go to.

If you had gone to the link I offered you would have seen the rebuttal of Bartlett's article.

I had hoped you would at least make a show of being open minded about it. But apparently you have read one article and seem to think you know what its about.

We will not be taxed 50% by the fair tax act.
 
'FairTax' Better Explained: Something to Wish For
Two accounting professors took a hot air balloon ride. Drifting over the tiny people in
the land below, they waxed effusively about favorite sections of the 10,000 page Internal
Revenue Code – believing the document to be the highest achievement of mankind.
Eventually exhausted with their repartee, they released some hot air to find out exactly
where they were. And floating past a man walking along a country road they
importuned.
“Sir, sir, may we ask you a question?”
“Well, yes,” said the squinting pedestrian, “anything you’d like.”
“Having nothing but the most fascinating discussion as our compass, we’ve lost track of
where we are. Tell us, precisely where are we?”
“With certainty!” the man replied. And after some thought, hollered back, “You are 50
feet off the ground in a hot air balloon.”
The professors looked at each other stunned until one broke the silence. “Amazing.
What do you suppose are the odds of finding another accountant all the way out here?”
The lesson of this story helps readers critically review Accounting Professor Walter
Austin’s November 4th article, “The 'FairTax' Explained: Be Careful for What you
Wish.” In his article, Accountant Austin stated the FairTax would replace the entire
system of federal income taxes. True enough, but Accountant Austin wrongly concluded,
“businesses will no longer pay federal income tax, [which] lost tax revenue must be made
up by individual taxpayers.” No matter how Congress succeeds in burying taxes in
amorphous entities called businesses, or taxing the same income multiple times, there is
but one taxpayer – the American people. Taxes fall out as lower wages and/or higher
priced products which businesses pass along.
What Accountant Austin missed is that a good tax system like the FairTax does not hide
its burden. A visible tax keeps politicians honest by eliminating the ability to raise taxes
by hidden loopholes on which accountants thrive. A visible tax ensures a built-in
downward pressure on the size of the government by making everyone a stakeholder,
rather than exempting 40 percent of Americans from income taxes as today.
Accountant Austin implied that the FairTax 23 percent "inclusive" rate is disingenuous,
since “most of us are not familiar with” that rate which “really means 30 percent.” But
50 feet off the ground or 600 inches will not change the distance. What Accountant
Austin missed is that Americans must honestly compare rates of reform alternatives,
which means comparing tax-inclusive rates to tax-inclusive rates and tax-exclusive rates
to tax-exclusive rates. Taxpayers are familiar with the tax-inclusive rate because every
tax replaced by the FairTax is measured on that basis. Who today would refer to a
middle-class taxpayer in the 25 percent tax bracket as paying at a 48 percent tax rate
(including payroll taxes) – its tax-exclusive equivalent?
Accountant Austin represents that a $200,000 house would bear a $60,000 sales tax, but
fails to add that cars and homes are less expensive under the FairTax, that more than five
times more existing homes are sold than new homes, and that previously owned items are
not taxed. New products no longer bear embedded taxes or compliance costs imposed
upstream, or are taxpayers required to spend only what remains after the IRS has taken its
partnership share from their paycheck. And under the FairTax, all interest is paid with
pre-tax dollars, which is much better than today since even mortgage interest for
itemizers must be paid with after-payroll tax dollars. And three-quarters of Americans
pay more payroll taxes than income taxes.
Accountant Austin quoted President Bush's tax reform panel that the rate of the FairTax
is not revenue neutral, the plan hurts the middle class, and the prebate program is too
costly. But the truth is the President's tax panel – itself led by lobbyists – never actually
evaluated the FairTax. Had they, they would have seen how a straightforward static rate
calculation guarantees the FairTax is revenue neutral at 23 percent tax inclusive. They
would have seen the FairTax base is almost twice the base of taxable income under the
current system.
Had they evaluated the FairTax, they would have found that researchers from Harvard,
MIT, Boston University, and others unanimously agree real wages would increase under
the plan. According to Dr. Laurence Kotlikoff, low-income households experience a 26.3
percent gain in purchasing power, middle-income households experience a 12.5 percent
gain, and high-income households a 5.0 percent gain in spendable income.
They might have found that the prebate is not a welfare plan, unless it is welfare not to
ask Americans to contribute to others before they have provided for their families.
Moreover, the full amount of these prebates would be $485 billion, an amount about half
of the $945 billion in estimated tax expenditures (standard deductions, personal
exemptions, etc.) today. The National Taxpayers Union estimated the actual cost of
mailing monthly prebate checks to be negligible, less than one-thousandth of the amount
wasted today in compliance costs.
Mr. Austin concluded that if the FairTax could do what it claims, “almost every
American would readily support it.” But the truth is the FairTax is resisted by a vocal
minority precisely because it will do what it claims in eliminating the IRS, the more than
$300 billion in compliance costs, and the corruption of the current system. And that
adjustment will be hard for tax lawyers, special interests, lobbyists, and those in Congress
who see the tax code as a way of generating campaign contributions. Apparently, it will
also be hard for accountants.
Gene Key
Fayetteville, Georgia
FairTax.org, Georgia State Director
 
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