gop saint regan and poison gas

[maineman]

No, that's precisely what you said.

When Bush says "No doubt" it's "whoa, we better listen."

When Obama says "No doubt" it's, "meh, dude is just talkin' dumb shit he don't know anything about again."

Provide me with a quote from Obama where he states, not as an opinion, but as an incontrovertible fact,devoid of all doubt, that Assad has used chemical weapons against his own people.

I'll wait.

and if he did say that, then it is a lie. If he uses that lie to mislead us into a ground war in Syria, that will be even worse. As a matter of fact, if that were the case, I would promise right here ad now that I would never vote for him ever again.

 

[NOVA]

Again... if I say that I have no doubt the Sox win the series, that is a statement of my opinion. If I state that there is no doubt they will win, that is a statement of fact and I am lying because I know full well that there is, in fact, lots of doubt about that very thing.

This can only be construed as opinion because it is something that hasn't happened yet....therefore is has to be opinion...so its irrelevant to this discussion.

irrelevant to you, maybe. not to me. I have never voted for any democrat who voted for the Iraq war resolution unless they publicly admitted they regretted the vote... and I never will.

It may be relevant to you on another level, but who cares...its irrelevant to this issue

If anyone stated as a matter of fact, that doubt did not exist about the existence of WMD stockpiles in Iraq, they lied. Bush lied. He was our president when he told us that lie.

And certainty of opinion is different than certainty of fact.

I have no doubt versus there is no doubt. opinion versus statement of fact.

Certainty of fact is in the mind of the speaker on an established event believed to have occured, not some future event....
ALL the above statements by those democrats are statements of of FACT to them .... no one said 'in my opinion', or "I think", or anything like to convey they could be mistaken...
To those speakers, they a conveying facts....and they are facts to them no matter what words are used....as in the first one where the speakers say "There is no doubt".....
These democrats are not lying because they are state what they believe to be factual, established truths....
Its simply not possible to lie if you believe you are stating the truth....simple logic and understanding of the English language....

What you're saying essence is that EVERY DEMOCRAT in the above quotes is a liar....they ALL conveyed the same certainly in what what they declared in those quotes....
some using the exact words,..... that is if you can be consistent...

 

[maineman]

This can only be construed as opinion because it is something that hasn't happened yet....therefore is has to be opinion...so its irrelevant to this discussion.



It may be relevant to you on another level, but who cares...its irrelevant to this issue



Certainty of fact is in the mind of the speaker on an established event believed to have occured, not some future event....
ALL the above statements by those democrats are statements of of FACT to them .... no one said 'in my opinion', or "I think", or anything like to convey they could be mistaken...
To those speakers, they a conveying facts....and they are facts to them no matter what words are used....as in the first one where the speakers say "There is no doubt".....
These democrats are not lying because they are state what they believe to be factual, established truths....
Its simply not possible to lie if you believe you are stating the truth....simple logic and understanding of the English language....

What you're saying essence is that EVERY DEMOCRAT in the above quotes is a liar....they ALL conveyed the same certainly in what what they declared in those quotes....
some using the exact words,..... that is if you can be consistent...

certainty of belief is qualitatively different than factual certainty. Sorry.

I fully understand what all those folks BELIEVED. bush, unfortunately chose words that went beyond a statement of his belief and made an assertion of fact that he knew was not factual. Ergo, a lie.

 

[NOVA]

We aren't talking about the Laws or Physics or the Laws or Gravity.......we're talking about lies and lying....

Its simply not possible to lie if you believe you are stating the truth....simple logic and understanding of the English language....

You can be right or you can be wrong, but you can't, by simple definition, be lying if you believe what you are saying is factual no matter how much you assure others
of your certainty, or what words you use to give that assurance....

schools out.

 

[tekkychick]

Ovum, read Christie's list of quotes. Then see if you can possibly stomach saying your friend Bush Jr didn't lie. But of course you'd be lying if you said such a thing.

 

[maineman]

We aren't talking about the Laws or Physics or the Laws or Gravity.......we're talking about lies and lying....

Its simply not possible to lie if you believe you are stating the truth....simple logic and understanding of the English language....

You can be right or you can be wrong, but you can't, by simple definition, be lying if you believe what you are saying is factual no matter how much you assure others
of your certainty, or what words you use to give that assurance....

schools out.

if he said what he believed, it would not have been a lie. If he had said,"there are some in our intelligence community who are not as convinced as I am about saddam's stockpiles of WMD's, but deep down in my heart, I just know he has them"... I would have respected that assertion of his strongly held beliefs. He did not say that. He said that doubt did not exist ...he said there was no doubt... "There is no doubt". You can tap dance and fiddle faddle and wiggle all around for the next ten pages on this thread and you will not be able to change the fact that words have meanings, and the meanings of the words he chose stated as a matter of FACT, not opinion, that the existence of saddam's stock piles was a factual certainty, and that there was no doubt about it, even though he knew full well of the existence of doubt within his own intelligence community. He lied. Just admit it. We won't impeach him now...I promise.

 

[maineman]

Oh... And are you saying that he believed that everyone within his intelligence apparatus was equally certain? Do you think he never bothered to READ the NIE's and their pages of caveats and qualifiers? Do you really believe that HE believed that everyone gathering, collecting and analyzing all that intelligence was as absolutely certain and doubt free as he claimed to be? Really??

 

[NOVA]

Oh... And are you saying that he believed that everyone within his intelligence apparatus was equally certain? Do you think he never bothered to READ the NIE's and their pages of caveats and qualifiers? Do you really believe that HE believed that everyone gathering, collecting and analyzing all that intelligence was as absolutely certain and doubt free as he claimed to be? Really??

It is not a matter of me making assumptions about what he believed anyone else thought, he wasn't speaking for the entire intelligence community
....its a matter taking what a man says at face value as what he believes.....

He didn't say, "There is no doubt, my intelligence has decided that etc etc etc....."
An NIE is by definition an estimate....its in the name....intelligence is a conclusion arrived at by weighing what we THINK we know .....its a guesstimate.
Read the damn thing.....Sixteen different agency's collect data that may or may not be factual and compare notes....intelligence isn't a collection of facts by any stretch....
Its at best a collection of circumstantial evidence, hearsay, and opinion and conflicting data....if you think otherwise, you're watching too much tv.
And of course their are caveats in their conclusions....its up to the reader to take the data and determine what they will believe is the truth.....and when, in your own
mind you come to those conclusions, you make a statement like, "I have the flu"....its what you decided is the fact of matter....
adding the phrase "there is no doubt" changes nothing but informing the listener as to the degree of your certainty....you always speak for yourself unless you
positively state otherwise....and its not for others to assume otherwise.....

Those Democrats weren't liars, they were just mistaken on what they believed to be the facts about Saddams WMD....they were saying it for the last decade and
there is no doubt they believed it......I made that statement, it is what I believe, I don't speak for anyone else in the world.



If you say , "I have the flu".....thats a simple declarative statement of what you believe at that time.....even if it turns out you don't have the flu, it wasn't a lie...If you thought you had the flu, you told the truth as you believed it to be....right or wrong, you didn't lie.

You made a mistake...yeah.....you were wrong, yeah....but it wasn't a lie at the time you made the claim....

Even if you say, "I positively have the flu"....or "There is no doubt, I have the flu".....I don't have to explain to you what others might think or that they may
not agree with me....

 

[Taft2016]

Intelligence leaves no doubt that Iraq continues to possess and conceal lethal weapons
~George Bush, US President 18 March, 2003

We're all quite aware of these quotes, we lived through these times.

Not surprisingly you omitted the quotes from the Clintons, Nancy Pelosi, John Kerry, and Harry Reid. Why do you continue to pretend this was one-sided and not bi-partisan?

And where was the contradictory evidence? This was an international effort and no contradictory evidence came forth from any foreign nations or domesitically. The only voice noticed was that of Scott Ritter, whose opinion fluctuated year-to-year, and was being influenced by Saddam feeding him underaged girls.

Now the Obama Administration has no doubt, yet no other nations unwaveringly support his position, and other nations have actually contradicted him, which never happened to Bush.

The chemical weapons were in Iraq. We know that because they were used. Their ultimate fate remains a lingering question that may never be answered.

Right now, Obama's contention of "no doubt" is a demonstrable lie. There is doubt, and lots of it.

 

[NOVA]

Ovum, read Christie's list of quotes.

mm and I were talking about Bush claim before the war and before the vote that he insists Bush just outsmarted the Dems into voting
to pass the resolution taking us to war....but I appreciate her post....
and of course it was obvious he based his claim on worldwide intelligence, I don't think anyone thought he just pulled his decisions out of the ether...

This fact, Its simply not possible to lie if you believe you are stating the truth....simple logic and understanding of the English language....holds true in each and
every case.....

 

[Taft2016]

I don't think anyone thought he just pulled his decisions out of the ether...

That's exactly what they think. Their "logic" follows:

Bush and his oil buddies wanted to get their hands on that Iraqi oil. Which they never did. I never did really understand that one... Bush's friends were in independent domestic oil companies in Texas. Not internationals. And if they really wanted the oil, they could have gone to the United Nations and gotten the oil embargo lifted. It was the USA keeping the embargo in place.

Then there was also Cheney, who wanted to make billions off of Halliburton. Anyone check his tax returns lately? Did he get those billions or not?

It's the height of irony that the reasons the libtards gave for Bush and Cheney lying.... those reasons were lies themselves.

 

[maineman]

It is not a matter of me making assumptions about what he believed anyone else thought, he wasn't speaking for the entire intelligence community
....its a matter taking what a man says at face value as what he believes.....

He didn't say, "There is no doubt, my intelligence has decided that etc etc etc....."
An NIE is by definition an estimate....its in the name....intelligence is a conclusion arrived at by weighing what we THINK we know .....its a guesstimate.
Read the damn thing.....Sixteen different agency's collect data that may or may not be factual and compare notes....intelligence isn't a collection of facts by any stretch....
Its at best a collection of circumstantial evidence, hearsay, and opinion and conflicting data....if you think otherwise, you're watching too much tv.
And of course their are caveats in their conclusions....its up to the reader to take the data and determine what they will believe is the truth.....and when, in your own
mind you come to those conclusions, you make a statement like, "I have the flu"....its what you decided is the fact of matter....
adding the phrase "there is no doubt" changes nothing but informing the listener as to the degree of your certainty....you always speak for yourself unless you
positively state otherwise....and its not for others to assume otherwise.....

Those Democrats weren't liars, they were just mistaken on what they believed to be the facts about Saddams WMD....they were saying it for the last decade and
there is no doubt they believed it......I made that statement, it is what I believe, I don't speak for anyone else in the world.



If you say , "I have the flu".....thats a simple declarative statement of what you believe at that time.....even if it turns out you don't have the flu, it wasn't a lie...If you thought you had the flu, you told the truth as you believed it to be....right or wrong, you didn't lie.

You made a mistake...yeah.....you were wrong, yeah....but it wasn't a lie at the time you made the claim....

Even if you say, "I positively have the flu"....or "There is no doubt, I have the flu".....I don't have to explain to you what others might think or that they may
not agree with me....

He is the commander in chief. Whenever he speaks, he speaks with the power and authority of his office. I have read NIE's and they DO contain doubts. Ergo, to claim that doubt did not exist was a knowingly false statement. Plain and simple. There were plenty of other sentences he could have crafted that did were not knowingly false. The sentence he chose was, however. As I said... you can continue to wiggle around all you want, but when someone makes a declarative statement of fact, and they know that statement is false when they make it, it is what we call in our language, "a lie". Bush, more than anyone else, was well aware of the doubts his intelligence agencies had about Saddam's WMD's. He chose to lie to us about the existence of those doubts. Deal with it.

 

[maineman]

mm and I were talking about Bush claim before the war and before the vote that he insists Bush just outsmarted the Dems into voting
to pass the resolution taking us to war....but I appreciate her post....
and of course it was obvious he based his claim on worldwide intelligence, I don't think anyone thought he just pulled his decisions out of the ether...

This fact, Its simply not possible to lie if you believe you are stating the truth....simple logic and understanding of the English language....holds true in each and
every case.....

And it is impossible for a president to have read the NIE's, replete with caveats and qualifiers, and then face the camera and tell America that those caveats and qualifiers did not exist. THERE IS NO DOUBT is not an expression of opinion. It is a statement of fact that Dubya knew to be false when he said it. He knew full well that there WERE doubts. He, personally, may not have had any, but he chose to tell us that THERE IS NO DOUBT.... he didn't add "in MY mind" or "in MY opinion". He just looked us in the eye and told us that they weren't even there. Liar.

 

[Taft2016]

He is the commander in chief. Whenever he speaks, he speaks with the power and authority of his office.

Holy cheez 'n crackers. I can't believe you have the temerity to even say that.

When the Obama administration draws a red-line, that too is done with the power and authority of his office. It's not an opinion, a scholarly musing, or a soundbite on the world stage.

And when his administration says "no doubt", that too applies.

Your logical contortions and hypocrisies are duly noted.

 

[Taft2016]

Here's a simple question for you Maineman:

Should the Obama Administration be saber rattling about there being "no doubt," when in fact there is a considerable amount of doubt around the world?

Certainly more doubt than existed prior to the Iraqi invasion.

 

[evince]

dear fucking idiot ,


did Obama say no doubt they have weapons?

did they then have to admit they had weapons due to the threat of force?


Obama won you fucking dimwit.

just saying he fucked up when he won doesnt get it

it just makes you a fucking liar

 

[maineman]

Here's a simple question for you Maineman:

Should the Obama Administration be saber rattling about there being "no doubt," when in fact there is a considerable amount of doubt around the world?

Certainly more doubt than existed prior to the Iraqi invasion.

I am waiting from yesterday for you to provide me a quote where Obama states, as a matter of fact, and not just opinion, that Assad has used chemical weapons on his people and that such use is absolutely true. If he did, he lied.

Here's a simple question for YOU taft: Why is it so hard for republicans to simply admit that Bush lied to AMerica about the absolute certainty of Saddam's WMD stockpiles?

 

[Taft2016]

did Obama say no doubt they have weapons?

did they then have to admit they had weapons due to the threat of force?


Obama won you fucking dimwit.

just saying he fucked up when he won doesnt get it

it just makes you a fucking liar

Hey Dopey...

All you have to do is visit "The Google" and you'll find news stories about Syria's chemical weapons going back over 20 years. There was never any doubt that Syria had chemical weapons. That's why Obama issued the red-line in the first place. You think he just sputtered it out one day out of the blue, not knowing whether or not Syria had chemical weapons?

Nor was there any doubt that chemical weapons were used.

The doubt is about who used them. Assad or the rebels.

Duhhhhhhh.

 

[evince]

oh my


remember when it first happened and a lot of you people on all sides of this said Obama was lying about the attack?

 

[evince]

I was ONE of the ONLY people here saying THIS HAPPENED