rummy....

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Althea said:
What discussion are you following?
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This one....

Originally Posted by Althea
Whereabouts? You mean to question the variety of rumors circulating during the Bush years? 'He's living in a cave, with his dialysis machine'?

Did Bush know where he was, and have more pressing business in Iraq? I'm not sure what you're asking.

Or are you laying the foundation for a bogus claim about water boarding, and finding Bin Laden?
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christiefan915 said:
It was rummy who came up with the bizarre cave diagram. Did you believe it?

bin-ladens-cave.gif


http://www.infotextmanuscripts.org/bin-ladens-cave.gif
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The only thing funnier than this is that Bravo is going to try to say it is real.
 
Rune said:
:palm:
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Thats the best you can do ?....Its about par for the course with imbeciles.....can't carry on a debate when they get questioned about their own posts....

At least mm had the good sense to just go off line and run away.....


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Originally Posted by NOVA
Don't agree with the "Wolfowitz Doctrine"...huh?

So you have no problem with country's like Iran and North Korea developing a nuclear arsenal and missile program on a par the ours, huh ?

You'd have problem with our trying to prevent " hostile power from dominating a region whose resources would, under consolidated control, be sufficient to generate global power."

You would have a problem with a US goal to " strengthen and extend the system of defense arrangements that binds democratic and like-minded nations together in common defense against aggression"

You would have a problem with a provision that "we will retain the preeminent responsibility for addressing selectively those wrongs which threaten not only our interests, but those of our allies or friends"

Maybe it would be easier if you just point out EXACTLY what the fuck problems you have with the so called "Wolfowitz Doctrine"
I know its probably to 'macho' for you, but be specific
 
I think this the pictures origin...

The Lair of Bin Laden is a fictoid that originated in the highly-enterprising British press on November 27th, 2001. The chronology is as follows. On November 26th, the New York Times carried a story based on the account of an a ex-Russian soldier, Viktor Kutsenko, who had served in Afghanistan in the nineteen-eighties in which he claimed that there had seen an elaborate cave complex in Zhawar with "iron doors" that contained " a bakery, a hotel with overstuffed furniture, a hospital with an ultrasound machine, a library, a mosque, weapons of every imaginable stripe; a service bay with a World War II-era Soviet tank inside, in perfect running order." The historic story then added "Mr. bin Laden is reported to have upgraded both it and a nearby camp in the 1990's."


On November 27th, the London-based Independent came up with its own fairly similar troglodyte story, except that it had moved the underground fortress from Zhawar to Tora Bora, where the manhunt for bin Laden was about to begin, and advanced it in time from the nineteen-eighties to the present.
The Independent headlined: "Al-Qa'ida almost 'immune to attack' inside its hi-tech underground lair." In the story, its correspondent Richard Lloyd Parry, in Jalalabad, described a vast redoubt burrowed deep under a mountain, with labyrinthian tunnels sealed by with iron doors. "It has its own ventilation system and its own power, created by a hydro-electric generator. Its walls and floors in the rooms are smooth and finished and it extends 350 yards beneath a solid mountain." It was therefore tunneled almost as deep as the World Trade Center was high. It was also " so well defended and concealed that – short of poison gas or a tactical nuclear weapon – it is immune to outside attack. And it is filled with heavily armed followers of Osama bin Laden, with a suicidal commitment to their cause and with nothing left to lose."
It further claimed that fortress was built " reportedly employing expertise from Mr bin Laden's Saudi construction businesses" and housed "as many as 2,000 Arab and foreign fighters." The story's putative unidentified witness— the lone deep throat— explained, "It's like a hotel, with doors on the left and the right."
The idea that Osama and his followers had entombed themselves in an unassailable fortress under a mountain immediately embedded itself into the imagination of the American press. The Associated Press put The Independent story on its services, which went to hundreds of major newspapers and broadcasting stations. ABC News re-headlined the story "Bin Laden Hide-out Resembles Hotel: Witness," depicting "The cave complex ... filled with bin Laden's fanatical followers." Yahoo noted in its Internet service "Bin Laden has reputedly built a fortress 1,150 feet (350 meters) beneath the mountains, equipped with water, electricity and ventilation and guarded by hundreds or thousands of fighters ready to die for their leader." CBS, expanding the story, reported that an Afghan "commander thinks bin Laden is in a cave fortress known as Tora Bora. The massive hideout was built by the U.S. to house forces fighting the Soviet Army in the 1980s. The complex - nicknamed "bin Laden's ant farm," is burrowed deep into Gree Khil peak -- soaring 13,000 feet above the village of Tora Bora. It is virtually impregnable -- a latticework of tunnels, storage rooms for arms and munitions, and accommodations for up to a thousand fighters. Ventilation shafts bring fresh air 1,200 feet inside the mountain. A nearby river provides hydroelectric power to the complex... at least 2,000 of bin Laden's al-Qaida fighters are believed to be hiding there," In the Los Angeles Times Professor Mark C. Taylor added to his essay on an ancient troglodyte Hittite city in Turkey that "This city and others like it provide the prototype for the underground fortresses where Bin Laden and his followers are presumed to be hiding;" The Atlanta Journal-Constitution put the underground city in context, saying "The bitter and brutal end game between Osama bin Laden and U.S.-led forces is being played out in a mountain fortress the CIA helped build... equipped with ventilation and hydroelectric power." This bunker-fortress, the story continued, "provides bin Laden with significant advantages... it is considered invulnerable even to bunker-busting bombs and impregnable to conventional military attack." The Times of London meanwhile illustrated its story with an artist's rendering of the underground fortress, which dwarfed even Hitler's infamous "eagle's nest" fortress.

http://tinyurl.com/n8em3ly

Looks like it hit all the major news people....betcha Rummy cringes when he remembers that interview on TV.
 
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Rummy: "Oh, you bet. This is serious business. And there's not one of those. There are many of those. And they have been used very effectively. And I might add, Afghanistan is not the only country that has gone underground. Any number of countries have gone underground. The tunneling equipment that exists today is very powerful. It's dual use. It's available across the globe. And people have recognized the advantages of using underground protection for themselves."

Pure bullshit... from the administration that shoveled it at us by the ton.
 
NOVA said:
I think this the pictures origin...

The Lair of Bin Laden is a fictoid that originated in the highly-enterprising British press on November 27th, 2001. The chronology is as follows. On November 26th, the New York Times carried a story based on the account of an a ex-Russian soldier, Viktor Kutsenko, who had served in Afghanistan in the nineteen-eighties in which he claimed that there had seen an elaborate cave complex in Zhawar with "iron doors" that contained " a bakery, a hotel with overstuffed furniture, a hospital with an ultrasound machine, a library, a mosque, weapons of every imaginable stripe; a service bay with a World War II-era Soviet tank inside, in perfect running order." The historic story then added "Mr. bin Laden is reported to have upgraded both it and a nearby camp in the 1990's."


On November 27th, the London-based Independent came up with its own fairly similar troglodyte story, except that it had moved the underground fortress from Zhawar to Tora Bora, where the manhunt for bin Laden was about to begin, and advanced it in time from the nineteen-eighties to the present.
The Independent headlined: "Al-Qa'ida almost 'immune to attack' inside its hi-tech underground lair." In the story, its correspondent Richard Lloyd Parry, in Jalalabad, described a vast redoubt burrowed deep under a mountain, with labyrinthian tunnels sealed by with iron doors. "It has its own ventilation system and its own power, created by a hydro-electric generator. Its walls and floors in the rooms are smooth and finished and it extends 350 yards beneath a solid mountain." It was therefore tunneled almost as deep as the World Trade Center was high. It was also " so well defended and concealed that – short of poison gas or a tactical nuclear weapon – it is immune to outside attack. And it is filled with heavily armed followers of Osama bin Laden, with a suicidal commitment to their cause and with nothing left to lose."
It further claimed that fortress was built " reportedly employing expertise from Mr bin Laden's Saudi construction businesses" and housed "as many as 2,000 Arab and foreign fighters." The story's putative unidentified witness— the lone deep throat— explained, "It's like a hotel, with doors on the left and the right."
The idea that Osama and his followers had entombed themselves in an unassailable fortress under a mountain immediately embedded itself into the imagination of the American press. The Associated Press put The Independent story on its services, which went to hundreds of major newspapers and broadcasting stations. ABC News re-headlined the story "Bin Laden Hide-out Resembles Hotel: Witness," depicting "The cave complex ... filled with bin Laden's fanatical followers." Yahoo noted in its Internet service "Bin Laden has reputedly built a fortress 1,150 feet (350 meters) beneath the mountains, equipped with water, electricity and ventilation and guarded by hundreds or thousands of fighters ready to die for their leader." CBS, expanding the story, reported that an Afghan "commander thinks bin Laden is in a cave fortress known as Tora Bora. The massive hideout was built by the U.S. to house forces fighting the Soviet Army in the 1980s. The complex - nicknamed "bin Laden's ant farm," is burrowed deep into Gree Khil peak -- soaring 13,000 feet above the village of Tora Bora. It is virtually impregnable -- a latticework of tunnels, storage rooms for arms and munitions, and accommodations for up to a thousand fighters. Ventilation shafts bring fresh air 1,200 feet inside the mountain. A nearby river provides hydroelectric power to the complex... at least 2,000 of bin Laden's al-Qaida fighters are believed to be hiding there," In the Los Angeles Times Professor Mark C. Taylor added to his essay on an ancient troglodyte Hittite city in Turkey that "This city and others like it provide the prototype for the underground fortresses where Bin Laden and his followers are presumed to be hiding;" The Atlanta Journal-Constitution put the underground city in context, saying "The bitter and brutal end game between Osama bin Laden and U.S.-led forces is being played out in a mountain fortress the CIA helped build... equipped with ventilation and hydroelectric power." This bunker-fortress, the story continued, "provides bin Laden with significant advantages... it is considered invulnerable even to bunker-busting bombs and impregnable to conventional military attack." The Times of London meanwhile illustrated its story with an artist's rendering of the underground fortress, which dwarfed even Hitler's infamous "eagle's nest" fortress.

http://tinyurl.com/n8em3ly

Looks like it hit all the major news people....betcha Rummy cringes when he remembers that interview on TV.
Click to expand...

So that was a bunch of bullshit, from Christie!
christiefan915 said:
It was rummy who came up with the bizarre cave diagram. Did you believe it?
Click to expand...
 
maineman said:
Rummy: "Oh, you bet. This is serious business. And there's not one of those. There are many of those. And they have been used very effectively. And I might add, Afghanistan is not the only country that has gone underground. Any number of countries have gone underground. The tunneling equipment that exists today is very powerful. It's dual use. It's available across the globe. And people have recognized the advantages of using underground protection for themselves."

Pure bullshit... from the administration that shoveled it at us by the ton.
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Ha ha, poor, deluded rummy.

 
althea and all the rest of the bush derangement syndrome out there....blix admitted prior to the iraq war that he did not know whether iraq possessed wmd because he had been denied unfettered inspection and how could he say anything else....you admit that iraq was playing cat and mouse games, meaning that he could not inspect, he could not verify....he opposed the war but could not say with any certitude as to wmd....to my knowledge niger never backed off their claim that iraq was seeking enriched uranium and the whole wilson junket plame cia babe bs was just that liberal contrived bs....i like you lived thru this, followed it all and even watched the hearings....not one scintilla of evidence has ever been produced demonstrating bush and the boys of having fabricated anything, if anything they were wrong....of course there was some rather interesting discussion about what we might find in syria not too long ago....
 
maineman said:
rummy's comments when he saw the diagram certainly suggest he was quite familiar with it, doncha think?
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Thats the price you pay when you believe the press is writing something factual....the entire US press reported it like they had the plans.

Now try answering my post 228 or thereabouts.....
 
NOVA said:
Don't agree with the "Wolfowitz Doctrine"...huh?

So you have no problem with country's like Iran and North Korea developing a nuclear arsenal and missile program on a par the ours, huh ?

You'd have problem with our trying to prevent " hostile power from dominating a region whose resources would, under consolidated control, be sufficient to generate global power."

You would have a problem with a US goal to " strengthen and extend the system of defense arrangements that binds democratic and like-minded nations together in common defense against aggression"

You would have a problem with a provision that "we will retain the preeminent responsibility for addressing selectively those wrongs which threaten not only our interests, but those of our allies or friends"

Maybe it would be easier if you just point out EXACTLY what the fuck problems you have with the so called "Wolfowitz Doctrine"
I know its probably to 'macho' for you, but be specific
Click to expand...

Wolfie was actually a protege of my Dad's first wife... she was quite the neo-con theorist.... she spoke highly of him.

The ONLY problem I had with Wolfie was the bullshit he was spewing before we invaded Iraq....

That, however, given the severity of the prevarications and the American lives lost as a result, is still reason enough to try the bastard for war crimes and shoot him, imo.
 
maineman said:
Wolfie was actually a protege of my Dad's first wife... she was quite the neo-con theorist.... she spoke highly of him.

The ONLY problem I had with Wolfie was the bullshit he was spewing before we invaded Iraq....

That, however, given the severity of the prevarications and the American lives lost as a result, is still reason enough to try the bastard for war crimes and shoot him, imo.
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His first wife!!

So infidelity runs in your family.
 
Rune said:
Invading a sovereign nation, for crimes of torture in accordance with Article 6 of the Nuremberg Charter. "The US is subject to customary international law and to the principles of the Nuremberg Charter and exceptional circumstances such as war, instability and public emergency cannot excuse torture.

Additionally;

A hill outside Basra was napalmed during the initial invasion of Iraq. So were two bridges south of Baghdad.Reports are based on an article by Andrew Boncombe (“U.S. Admits It Used Napalm Bombs in Iraq”) in The Independent on August 10, 2003, and a second source, Martin Savidge (“Protecting Iraq’s Oil Supply) broadcast on CNN on March 22, 2003.The use of napalm is banned by Article 55(1) of Protocol 1 to the Geneva Conventions.

During November 2004, white phosphorous, a chemical that can cause serious burns, was used as an anti-personnel airborne weapon in Fallujah, according to several American military officers. On the last day of the month, General Peter Pace, who headed the Joint Chiefs of Staff, defended the use of white phosphorous to illuminate targets at night.Evidence was first reported by Peter Popham (“US Forces Used Chemical Weapons During Assault on City of Fallujah”) in The Independent on November 8, 2005, and affirmed as well by Ali A. Allawi in The Occupation of Iraq (Yale University Press, 2007, p. 339).According to the Article 2 of the Protocol on Prohibition or Restrictions on the Use of Incendiary Weapons of 1980: “(1) It is prohibited in all circumstances to make the civilian population as such, individual civilians or civilian objects the object of attack by incendiary weapons. (2) It is prohibited in all circumstances to make any military objective located within a concentration of civilians the object of attack by air-delivered incendiary weapons.”

Some 2,000 tons ofdepleted uranium bullets, which can combust into a ball of fire measuring 10,000 Centigrade degrees, were utilized in the invasion of Iraq. At least 200 tons were used after the invasion. Children exposed to the munitions have come down with leukemia.There are many sources: Dahr Jamail, “What Have We Done?” Iraq Dispatches, August 6, 2005; Neil Mackay, “US Forces’ Use of Depleted Uranium Is ‘Illegal’,” Sunday Morning Herald, March 20, 2003; Angus Stickler, “Depleted Uranium Weapons—A BBC Investigation,” BBC Radio, August 21, 2007; Geert Van Moorer, “One Year After the Fall of Baghdad: How Healthy Is Iraq?,” Health-Now.com, April 28, 2004; Nao Shimoyachi, “Depleted Uranium Shells Decried: Citizens Find Bush Guilty of Afghan War Crimes,”Japan Times, March 14, 2004; World Tribunal on Iraq Declaration of the Jury of Conscience, Istanbul, June 25, 2005.According to Article 11 of the Joint Convention on the Safety of Spent Fuel Management and on the Safety of Radioactive Waste Management of 1997: “Each Contracting Party shall take the appropriate steps to ensure that at all stages of radioactive waste management individuals, society and the environment are adequately protected against radiological and other hazards.”

After the attacks on September 11, 2001, President George W. Bush declared a “War on Terror” and secured support in that “war” from Congress later that year in a resolution entitled “Authorization for Use of Military Force.” Based on that resolution, Bush commanded American troops to enter Afghanistan, and the Taliban was driven from power in the country. For a war to be in accord with the UN Charter, the UN Security Council must give approval. No such approval, however, was sought or granted. The Afghan War, in other words, was illegal under international law.
http://www.uswarcrimes.com/In case some politicians found it difficult to understand all this, Article 2(4) spelled it out in unequivocal terms: "All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state".
Everyone recognised there might have to be exceptions to this rule, but the Charter specifically does not authorize preemptive nor preventative action(i.e. getting in first) on the basis of a perceived future threat.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/19/opinion/iraq-war-bush-blair/


A top adviser to former Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice warned the Bush administration that its use of “cruel, inhuman or degrading” interrogation techniques like waterboarding were “a felony war crime.”
What’s more, newly obtained documents reveal that State Department counselor Philip Zelikow told the Bush team in 2006 that using the controversial interrogation techniques were “prohibited” under U.S. law — “even if there is a compelling state interest asserted to justify them.”
Zelikow argued that the Geneva conventions applied to al-Qaida — a position neither the Justice Department nor the White House shared at the time. That made waterboarding and the like a violation of the War Crimes statute and a “felony,” Zelikow tells Danger Room. Asked explicitly if he believed the use of those interrogation techniques were a war crime, Zelikow replied, “Yes.”
Zelikow first revealed the existence of his secret memo, dated Feb. 15, 2006, in an April 2009 blog post, shortly after the Obama administration disclosed many of its predecessor’s legal opinions blessing torture. He briefly described it (.pdf) in a contentious Senate hearing shortly thereafter, revealing then that “I later heard the memo was not considered appropriate for further discussion and that copies of my memo should be collected and destroyed.”
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/04/secret-torture-memo/


Zelikow’s memo was an internal bureaucratic push against an attempt by the Justice Department to flout long-standing legal restrictions against torture. In 2005, he wrote, both the Justice and State Departments had decided that international prohibitions against “acts of cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment which do not amount to torture” do not “apply to CIA interrogations in foreign countries.” Those techniques included contorting a detainee’s body in painful positions, slamming a detainee’s head against a wall, restricting a detainee’s caloric intake, and waterboarding.
Zelikow wrote that a law passed that year by Congress, restricting interrogation techniques, meant the “situation has now changed.” Both legally and as a matter of policy, he advised, administration officials were endangering both CIA interrogators and the reputation of the United States by engaging in extreme interrogations — even those that stop short of torture.
“We are unaware of any precedent in World War II, the Korean War, the Vietnam War, or any subsequent conflict for authorized, systematic interrogation practices similar to those in question here,” Zelikow wrote, “even where the prisoners were presumed to be unlawful combatants.


Retired General Antonio Taguba who led the US army’s investigation into the Abu Ghraib abuses has accused the Bush administration of “a systematic regime of torture” and war crimes. Taguba’s accusations appear in the preface to a new report released by Physicians for Human Rights. The report uses medical evidence to confirm first-hand accounts of eleven former prisoners who endured torture by US personnel in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Guantánamo Bay.​
Taguba writes “there is no longer any doubt as to whether the current administration has committed war crimes. The only question that remains to be answered is whether those who ordered the use of torture will be held to account.”
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article20130.htm

Need I go on, 3-D? Bush alone stands accused of 269 separate and verifiable felonies. Add His father, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Powell, Rice, Wolfowitz, Yoo, Baker, Quayle, Webster and Schwharzkopf and the charges run into the thousands.​
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I obviously don't care what the Europeans think. Obviously, the invasion was a waste of our manpower and money, which we could have spent on Islamist targets rather than the secular Hussein. For that alone, Bush deserves to be ridiculed, and the fact that he mishandled the occupation 100% of the way is a reason why we call him a moron (also, he's from Texass).

But if you're going to cite the Europeans, then be prepared to say all of this stuff about Obama with regard to his adventurism and particularly the drone program. I am not prepared to do that, myself...
 
NOVA said:
Any imagined "blood for oil campaign" was strictly a figment of left wing lunatics dreamed up by left wing lunatics and sold to left wing lunatics
and still believed by only some left wing lunatics.
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Yes...yes it was. Which is probably why Dubyah warned any allies that refused to join the campaign, that they wouldn't 'share in the spoils'. Chuck Hagel, and Alan Greenspan (for starters) disagree with you.
 
Jarod said:
I don't know what was in Rummy's mind. It could have been either, but due to public perception it was a poor choice of words.

I think it debases the office of the president to use those words to criticize the occupant of the White House. Rummy is educated enough to have chosen a more substantial way to criticize the foreign policy of the Administration.
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Agree, especially when his own performance wasnt stellar
 
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