Will Trump be Reelected via Electoral College or via 12th Amendment ?

Electoral votes are not certified. States get until Jan 6th to choose their electors. At least seven States have not yet chosen their electors.

Those were the electors who cast their votes in all 50 states on December 14. Obviously those states have chosen their electors for them to vote.

Contextomy fallacy. Read the Constitution, dumbass. ALL of it.

It was not out of context. Here is the entire 12th Amendment. The meaning does not change. Try reading the Constitution itself.

The Electors shall meet in their respective states and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President, one of whom, at least, shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves; they shall name in their ballots the person voted for as President, and in distinct ballots the person voted for as Vice-President, and they shall make distinct lists of all persons voted for as President, and of all persons voted for as Vice-President, and of the number of votes for each, which lists they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the seat of the government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate;-The President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted;-The person having the greatest Number of votes for President, shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed; and if no person have such majority, then from the persons having the highest numbers not exceeding three on the list of those voted for as President, the House of Representatives shall choose immediately, by ballot, the President. But in choosing the President, the votes shall be taken by states, the representation from each state having one vote; a quorum for this purpose shall consist of a member or members from two-thirds of the states, and a majority of all the states shall be necessary to a choice. And if the House of Representatives shall not choose a President whenever the right of choice shall devolve upon them, before the fourth day of March next following, then the Vice-President shall act as President, as in the case of the death or other constitutional disability of the President-The person having the greatest number of votes as Vice-President, shall be the Vice-President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed, and if no person have a majority, then from the two highest numbers on the list, the Senate shall choose the Vice-President; a quorum for the purpose shall consist of two-thirds of the whole number of Senators, and a majority of the whole number shall be necessary to a choice. But no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States.
 
The 12th Amendment does not somehow declare that State legislatures somehow cannot change their minds before the President of the Senate opens the certificates and have a different set of electors go through those same steps. All it requires is that the electors go through those steps.

One of the steps is that the Electors must vote on December 14th, which according to my calendar has already happened.

I would be worried if the Republicans had gotten competing Electors by December 14th. I am not even slightly worried. The Constitution is very specific that Congress must set the date all Electors must vote on, and that date has come and gone. That means you have one week to convince Congress (with a Democratic majority in at least one house) to change that date, get the Supreme Court to approve an ex post facto law, get state legislators to appoint new Electors, have those new Electors vote, and finally fight all that out on January 6th. Most of those steps are impossible, and they are all impossible in one week.

There is no "secret part" of the Constitution. I have included the very public part of the Constitution below:

The Electors shall meet in their respective States, and vote by Ballot... The Congress may determine the Time of chusing [sic] the Electors, and the Day on which they shall give their Votes; which Day shall be the same throughout the United States.


... unless you see somewhere the 12th Amendment says that State legislatures lose their plenary power to choose their electors at some point before the President of the Senate opens the certificates?

The Constitution specifically gives the power to the Congress to decide the date that the Electors vote. It has happened. Move on.

If you have any doubts you'll certainly be finding out on January 6th when you are "totally surprised" by the vote happening on January 6th and not somehow having already happened.

Undoubtedly, one of the two of us will be very surprised with the results of January 6th. It should not be a surprise for either of us. The results are known, and unchangable.

I think we can both agree that Trump being elected President, or any result that differs from what you perceive was "voted" on December 14th, will be the proof in the putting.

What the Constitution calls voting, has happened. Now for what the Constitution calls counting. But we already know the count, so... Move on.
 
Consider how things might go down as the two closed envelopes from Georgia are handed to the V.P. Rather than opening them, he says:Therefore, the chair rules that Georgia has not transmitted the votes of any presidential electors to this body. Georgia presents zero votes for Donald Trump and zero votes for Joseph Biden.

I would be worried had Georgia been able to get a second set of Electors appointed, but they did not. Pence will be holding ONE envelope from Georgia.

Even with two envelopes, Pence does not have the right to ignore votes. That would mean a Constitutional crisis where the Congress had to work out which votes to count. There is no right to just throw away votes.

If there were such a magical power, wouldn't past VP's have used it. Many times VP's have to preside over their own loss, or the loss of a close ally. Gore had to count his own loss. Biden had to count Clinton's loss. Wouldn't they have used this magical power to reverse these losses.

The VP is not some magical dictator.
 
I love how people who bat roughly .400 in terms of spelling any given word correctly are suddenly assigning themselves Constitutional research. What could go wrong?


This thread belongs in the spam bin.
 
The Constitution requires electoral votes be cast on December 14 (as set by Congress). That is their plenary power and states cannot change that date.
Congress fixed a date of January 6th. January 6th hasn't happened yet, but I assure you that it will and it's shaping up to lead to a glorious victory for Trump.

... but don't worry, I will be asking you to explain January 6th's results differing from what you declared as being 100% certain because it "already happened." You've got one week to think of an answer.


They already submitted those votes.
Pence hasn't declared ANY votes yet because January 6th hasn't happened. I hope you aren't confusing a vote in this sense with a mere certificate in an envelope that can be changed or decertified. That would be embarrassing.

Trust in the denial, Luke. A Leftist's strength FLOWS from the denial. The denial surrounds ALL our ballots, flows from hatred and binds us to certificates in envelopes.

.
 
I would be worried had ...
I get it. You're not worried. You totally don't see it coming. The only way for this election to go to the House via 12th Amendment is if no candidate receives 270 electoral votes; however you have assured me that Biden already has in excess of 300 electoral votes, that it is 100% certain because it has "already happened." You have assured me that January 6th cannot possibly result in changing a result that has already happened, right? Nobody can travel back in time on January 6th to undo Biden's win that has already happened, right?



... so I ask, how will you meltdown, what will you be wearing and who do you have lined up to capture it on video?

.
 
This thread belongs in the spam bin.
... yet you felt compelled to participate in it and to contribute to it.

So while you're here, how will Trump win?

A) Electoral College
B) 12th Amendment

I'm betting on B) 12th Amendment.
 
You totally don't see it coming.

The deadline for voting was December 14th. On that date, Biden got 306 votes, which means he has won.

In a week, we will see which one of us is right. I will seriously reevaluate my world view if I am wrong, and I would hope you would do the same.
 
Congress fixed a date of January 6th. January 6th hasn't happened yet, but I assure you that it will and it's shaping up to lead to a glorious victory for Trump.

... but don't worry, I will be asking you to explain January 6th's results differing from what you declared as being 100% certain because it "already happened." You've got one week to think of an answer.

Pence hasn't declared ANY votes yet because January 6th hasn't happened. I hope you aren't confusing a vote in this sense with a mere certificate in an envelope that can be changed or decertified. That would be embarrassing.

Trust in the denial, Luke. A Leftist's strength FLOWS from the denial. The denial surrounds ALL our ballots, flows from hatred and binds us to certificates in envelopes.

.

January 6 is to count the electoral votes. Votes cannot be counted until the electors have already voted. Pence does not declare electoral votes, he only counts those with a mere certificate in an envelope. Pence would be acting unconstitutionally to declare the electoral vote differently from those already cast.

"The President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted;"


The only denial is you refusing to believe Biden will be elected. Sorry you will be disappointed about the "glorious victory."

Name a state which has not yet chosen its electors.
 
Certification is not a period.

Legislatures choose their electors, no one else.

Votes aren't certified. Elections are. At least seven States have not yet certified.

Electoral votes are not certified.

Seven States have filed Contested.

Psychoquackery.

Yes there were. Millions of them. You can't just wish them away.

Then you show the damn proof. Nobody else has done a thing. They are just like you, repeating a hoax over and over. You cannot wish them into existence.
All states certified the electoral college votes. Next week, they will COUNT them in a ceremony.
Where do you get these lies you keep typing?
 
To those of little faith, to those with little backbone, to those who have been betrayed so many times before that they are afraid to hope one more time:

Wait a little while longer. Is victory guaranteed? Nothing in life is, but those who bail out now, are weak, corrupt, or perhaps have been in politics too long. Whatever it is, hang in there for the big finale. It’ll either be a great new beginning or this country’s end.

I’d be more worried if it were anyone else but Trump. I believe this moment is why he ran. This will be his legacy. If you think he’s preparing to fail after everything these traitors to the Republic have put him and the country through, you don’t understand the first thing about Donald Trump.

This is from Candace Owens. It’s a superb overview of the story we are watching unfold.

photo credit: Gage Skidmore Candace Owens via photopin (license)This is from Candace Owens:
“ At the moment, POTUS is sitting on a stack of Trump cards that he’s just waiting to unleash…a royal flush!

He has court cases that will go to the Supreme Court and thanks to the Texas case, he’s now aware how to file them properly…under article 3 not 2…so the SCOTUS will be forced to listen…..

He now has the DNI report. Barr stepped down and can now be a witness…..he did his job. Durham is special counsel and can prosecute, in any state….
He’s letting civil, criminal and federal courts fail to handle the situation properly…..so he can use military tribunals. He has ALL the data from the NSA, the Kraken supercomputer, the Alice supercomputer and likely many more computers, unknown to us….
He has the dueling electors from 7 state legislatures. He has VP Pence, as the final arbiter of which ballots to accept…..
He has the Insurrection Act, the NDAA, the national emergency, the 14th amendment, the 2018 executive order, the 2017 very first EO, the Patriot Act, the FISA warrants, the Declassification of everything, people swearing affidavits by the 1000s.
He has all the statistical data being analyzed….along with the videos, emails, phone calls and bank transfer statements…..showing the coordination of the coup d’etat.
He has RICO and he has the crimes against humanity videos. Wikileaks just dropped extensive information and Assange will be pardoned. Assange can then openly discuss the murder of Seth Rich….
Now that the governors and secretary of states certified and Biden accepted….they each committed and knowingly agreed to acts of Treason….
Solar Winds was literally just raided and Dominion is closing down, as well. He has the CIA servers, used to change dominion machine votes from Trump to Biden…and he will soon have access to the actual machines, themselves….
He baited the Deep State into staying in DC, so they can be arrested. Biden hasn’t accepted any transition money and Harris has still not given up her seat on the senate….
The military has infiltrated Antifa and BLM. He has all their financial records. He knows which politicians took Chinese and Soros money….both Republican and Demorat….
He positioned Christopher Miller as secretary of defense and Ezra-Cohen Watnick as assistant secretary of defense. He literally just wrote an executive order, regarding the military line of succession. Many suspect Watnick to be Q.
He is defunding the CIA. He just replaced Kissinger & Allbright on the National Security Advisory Board…..with men loyal to him.
The military has been flying planes, far more than usual, all over the country. The Navy just parked mega fleets on both coasts. The 82nd Airborne is preparing for an operation….which is the same group that General Flynn & AG Donoghue were enlisted.
Pieces are finally falling into place. POTUS has it all! He is just laying out the pieces and building the narrative. He knows he won and they committed Treason! He set a trap and they walked right in, without hesitation.
He gave the Deep State the chance to come clean and try to fix things. They chose Treason! They will all hang, as the result.
Patriots in control! Nothing can stop what’s coming.

https://karenkataline.com/to-those-of-little-faith/
 
Consider.............the law and the consequences of not following it.

***************

December 26, 2020
It's for Mike Pence to Judge whether a Presidential Election Was Held at All
By Ted Noel
On January 6, a joint session of Congress will open with Vice President Pence presiding as president of the Senate. His power will be plenary and unappealable. You heard that right. As president of the Senate, every objection comes directly to him, and he can rule any objection "out of order" or "denied." His task will be to fulfill his oath of office to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States and to ensure that the laws be faithfully executed. This is a high standard of performance, and V.P. Pence will have two choices. He can roll over on "certified" electors, or he can uphold the law.

Article II, Section 1 of the Constitution gives state legislatures "plenary authority" as enunciated in Bush v. Gore. This is key, since the counting of votes is discussed in Article II, the 12th Amendment, and 3 USC 15. To this we must add the history of counting and objections recounted by Alexander Macris (here and here). Put bluntly, it's as clear as mud. Add to that the fact that the contested states of Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, New Mexico, Nevada, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin have sent dueling slates of electors to D.C. This means that the V.P. has to decide how he will handle the situation when two sealed envelopes are handed to him from any of those states.

Macris points out that in 1800, even with constitutional deficiencies in Georgia, Thomas Jefferson blithely counted defective electoral votes from Georgia, effectively voting himself into the presidency. This demonstrates that the president of the Senate is the final authority on any motions or objections during the vote-counting. There is no appeal. That doesn't mean there won't be any outrage. Whatever Pence does, people will be angry. But what does the law demand?

Seven contested states clearly violated their own laws. Rather than list the facts, which have been detailed in multiple articles, we must consider the following:

An election is a process of counting votes for candidates. Only valid, lawful votes may be counted. A valid lawful vote is:

Cast by an eligible, properly registered elector as prescribed by laws enacted by the state Legislature.
Cast in a timely manner, as prescribed by laws enacted by the state Legislature.
Cast in a proper form as prescribed by laws enacted by the state Legislature.
Any process that does not follow these rules is not an election. Anything that proceeds from it cannot be regarded as having any lawful import.


Most commentators suggest that a process of collecting pieces of paper with marks on them is an election regardless of errors, omissions, and even deliberate malfeasance. This is a mistake. Imagine a golf tournament where every bad shot by one player gets a do-over, but the competing player has to follow USGA rules in detail. One player gets to drop freely out of hazards, but the other has to tackle every embedded ball as it lies. The result is a travesty.

The same thing applies to elections. If there are a handful of improper votes, we can suggest that there was in fact an election, perhaps tainted, but the election wasn't materially harmed. But when the people charged with managing the election decide to ignore the law, whatever process they supervise is not the process defined by the law. Therefore, it is not an election.

This leaves V.P. Pence with a dilemma. He is a gentleman who regards our governmental traditions with a degree of reverence, so he will be reluctant to take any bold action. But as an honorable man, faced with massive illegality, he must act to protect the law. Consider how things might go down as the two closed envelopes from Georgia are handed to the V.P. Rather than opening them, he says:

In my hand are envelopes purporting to contain electoral votes from Georgia. They are competing for consideration, so it is essential that I consider the law that governs this. That law, according to the Legislature of Georgia and Article II, Section 1 of the U.S. Constitution is the Georgia statute that includes procedures for signature-matching on absentee ballots, a requirement that all absentee ballots be first requested by a legitimate voter, and that election monitors be meaningfully present at all times while votes were counted.

The Georgia secretary of state, who is not empowered by the U.S. Constitution to make changes to election law, entered into a Consent Decree that gutted these protections enacted by the Georgia Legislature. The processes that he prescribed and were ultimately followed were manifestly contrary to that law. Further, the State of Georgia, in unprecedented concert with other states, suspended counting of ballots in the middle of the night, covering its conspiracy with a false claim of a "water main break." We now know from surveillance video that many thousands of "ballots" were counted unlawfully in the absence of legally required observers.

Finally, the State of Georgia, under the authority of secretary of state Brad Raffensperger, a non-legislative actor, used fatally flawed Dominion voting machines that have been demonstrated to be unreliable. In testing, the error rate of Dominion machines has exceeded 60%, far in excess of legal limits. They are designed to facilitate fraud without creating the legally required paper trail. This alone is far more than enough to swing an election.

Since the state of Georgia has failed to follow the election law established by its legislature under Article II, Section 1 of the Constitution, it has not conducted a presidential election. Therefore, no "presidential electors" were appointed in Georgia. Further, "electors" "certified" by non-legislative actors pursuant to this process are in fact not "presidential electors." The competing slate of "electors" is similarly deficient, having not been elected through a presidential election.

Therefore, the chair rules that Georgia has not transmitted the votes of any presidential electors to this body. Georgia presents zero votes for Donald Trump and zero votes for Joseph Biden.

The central point is that the VP, as the presiding officer and final authority, has the unquestionable authority to declare that the states in question have not conducted presidential elections. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth, but no one has the authority to override his decision.

The statement says nothing about who might or might not have "won" the contested states. Rather, by not following their own laws, as enacted by their own legislatures, they have violated Article II, Section 1. Thus, they have not conducted an election, and their results are void.


If the votes of all seven contested states are registered as zero, President Trump will have 232 votes, and Joe Biden will have 222. The 12th Amendment says, "[T]he votes shall then be counted[.] ... The person having the greatest number of votes for President, shall be the President[.]"

In plain language, Donald Trump will be re-elected, since he has a majority of the actual electoral votes. There will be no need to involve the House of Representatives to resolve a contingent election.

Richard Nixon chose not to contest the 1960 election because he felt that winning that way would lead to an ungovernable country. If V.P. Pence does this, that same argument might be made. But is the country governable even now? Blue states such as California, Oregon, Washington, New York, New Jersey, and Michigan are already operating in an openly lawless manner with their "emergency" "COVID-related" restrictions. Their denial of the civil rights of law-abiding citizens is horrific. Their refusal to do basic policing and law enforcement is a recipe for open war. How much worse would things be if the V.P. lived up to his oath and upheld the law?

https://www.americanthinker.com/art..._a_presidential_election_was_held_at_all.html
 
For a while it was looking like certain contested States were simply going to punt and just abstain from sending electors, thus denying either candidate the 270 electoral votes needed to win and sending the vote to the House whereby Trump would win by a lopsided 31-20 margin.

But lately, it's beginning to look like some of those contested States are going to do the right thing and flip back to Trump thus giving him the 270 electoral votes to win outright.

If I had to bet, ... I'm still not sure which path will take Trump to his second term.

.

Could you point out the language in the 12th Amendment that provides a "path" for Trump's reelection? Not your interpretation but the language itself. Thanks.
 
The Trump cabal has distilled down to the few who are seriously deranged. His lawyer, Lin Wood asked if Roberts had anything to do with Scalia's death. Then asks if he is a member of a club that requires a young boy for admission. Rudy is acting like he is looney making horrible and poorly crafted arguments in court. Trump is down to them because his real lawyers fled the insane cases and knowing Trump cheats them out of their pay.
Pence has no such powers that rightys claim. He is going to read the votes and they will be entered. Can you imagine what a mess it would be if he had the power to declare the election void and install his choice? The VP would have the power to negate elections. That is an incredible power. It is not in any constitution, ever.
Why are rightys not ashamed of saying these crazy things and been proven wrong? Can they learn?
 
Pence has no such powers that rightys claim. He is going to read the votes and they will be entered. Can you imagine what a mess it would be if he had the power to declare the election void and install his choice? The VP would have the power to negate elections. That is an incredible power. It is not in any constitution, ever.
Why are rightys not ashamed of saying these crazy things and been proven wrong? Can they learn?

They just need to prolong the debate. After January 6 they will turn to attacks on Biden although some will probably hold out hope for lawsuits.

They had to really stretch credulity to think the states can still submit new electors or that Pence would refuse to recognize an election even occurred. A Constitution that seeks to limit governmental power is not going to give the VP dictatorial powers.
 
Those were the electors who cast their votes in all 50 states on December 14. Obviously those states have chosen their electors for them to vote.
Nope. Seven have filed Contested. Looks like Georgia and Arizona are going to change their mind and send Republican electors.
It was not out of context. Here is the entire 12th Amendment. The meaning does not change. Try reading the Constitution itself.

The Electors shall meet in their respective states and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President, one of whom, at least, shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves; they shall name in their ballots the person voted for as President, and in distinct ballots the person voted for as Vice-President, and they shall make distinct lists of all persons voted for as President, and of all persons voted for as Vice-President, and of the number of votes for each, which lists they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the seat of the government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate;-The President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted;-The person having the greatest Number of votes for President, shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed; and if no person have such majority, then from the persons having the highest numbers not exceeding three on the list of those voted for as President, the House of Representatives shall choose immediately, by ballot, the President. But in choosing the President, the votes shall be taken by states, the representation from each state having one vote; a quorum for this purpose shall consist of a member or members from two-thirds of the states, and a majority of all the states shall be necessary to a choice. And if the House of Representatives shall not choose a President whenever the right of choice shall devolve upon them, before the fourth day of March next following, then the Vice-President shall act as President, as in the case of the death or other constitutional disability of the President-The person having the greatest number of votes as Vice-President, shall be the Vice-President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed, and if no person have a majority, then from the two highest numbers on the list, the Senate shall choose the Vice-President; a quorum for the purpose shall consist of two-thirds of the whole number of Senators, and a majority of the whole number shall be necessary to a choice. But no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States.

Contextomy fallacy. Lists are not not electors.
 
One of the steps is that the Electors must vote on December 14th, which according to my calendar has already happened.
Electors do not vote until Jan 6th.
I would be worried if the Republicans had gotten competing Electors by December 14th. I am not even slightly worried. The Constitution is very specific that Congress must set the date all Electors must vote on, and that date has come and gone.
No such phrase anywhere in the Constitution.
That means you have one week to convince Congress (with a Democratic majority in at least one house) to change that date, get the Supreme Court to approve an ex post facto law, get state legislators to appoint new Electors, have those new Electors vote, and finally fight all that out on January 6th. Most of those steps are impossible, and they are all impossible in one week.
At least seven States have already filed Contested. States have all the authority they need to change their slate of electors at any time up until Jan 6th, when the vote is taken.
There is no "secret part" of the Constitution.
Then why did you say there is???
I have included the very public part of the Constitution below:

The Constitution specifically gives the power to the Congress to decide the date that the Electors vote. It has happened. Move on.
Jan 6th is in the future, not the past, dumbass.
Undoubtedly, one of the two of us will be very surprised with the results of January 6th. It should not be a surprise for either of us. The results are known, and unchangable.
Then I guess we don't need Congress to meet at all, do you?
What the Constitution calls voting, has happened.
Nope. Jan 6th is in the future, not the past.
Now for what the Constitution calls counting. But we already know the count, so... Move on.
Counting is voting in this case.
 
I would be worried had Georgia been able to get a second set of Electors appointed, but they did not. Pence will be holding ONE envelope from Georgia.
They did, and Pence will be holding two envelopes.
Even with two envelopes, Pence does not have the right to ignore votes.
He is required to, unless the Georgia legislature can make it clear which slate of electors is to be used.
That would mean a Constitutional crisis where the Congress had to work out which votes to count. There is no right to just throw away votes.
Yes there is. Indeed, there is a REQUIREMENT to throw away votes. A State the does not choose it's electors abstains. It has NO electors.
If there were such a magical power, wouldn't past VP's have used it.
They have. It is not magick. It is in the Constitution.
Many times VP's have to preside over their own loss, or the loss of a close ally. Gore had to count his own loss. Biden had to count Clinton's loss. Wouldn't they have used this magical power to reverse these losses.
Contextomy fallacies.
The VP is not some magical dictator.
No one said he did (except you). He DOES have specific powers and authorities, however.
 
The deadline for voting was December 14th.
Nope. The electoral college does not vote on Dec 14th. Seven States so far have not chosen their electoral college yet.
On that date, Biden got 306 votes, which means he has won.
Jan 6th is in the future, not the past. The vote hasn't occurred yet.
In a week, we will see which one of us is right. I will seriously reevaluate my world view if I am wrong, and I would hope you would do the same.
Since you already seem to confuse past and future, I would say your world is a very weird.
 
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