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[blackascoal]

I have a serious question and I hope you do not take this in the wrong way: Should someone who is healthy and able to work who chooses not to be supported by those who do?

My wise brother .. I always take you seriously and I believe we could discuss any topic without rancor or disrespect.

For those who choose not to work the answer is No.

However, Democratic Socialists don't agree with the capitalist assumption that starvation or greed are the only reasons people work. People enjoy thier work if it is meaningful and enhances their lives. They work out of a sense of responsibility to their community and society. Although a long-term goal of socialism is to eliminate all but the most enjoyable kinds of labor, we recognize that unappealing jobs will remain. These tasks would be spread among as many people as possible- rather than distributed on the basis of class, race, ethnicity, or gender, as they are under capitalism. We believe that a combination of social, economic, and moral incentives will motivate people to work.

Additionally, I don't focus on the dysfunction of the few, but rather the best interests of the whole. Bad apples or bad people should not define all people nor should they inhibit trying to achieve a more just society.

 

[blackascoal]

um.... SISTER....

froggie is a woman.

Thank you brother.

I knew that but didn't think.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

watermark for a commie asshole your graph isn't so bad.

Usually when I take it I'm in the dead center economically. I took it when I had an hour and a half of sleep, and I think my answers to some questions were a bit spurious.

Of course, this test is biased to the left, so dead center still means I'm left wing. Obama is in the "conservative" sphere on his sight after all.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

I'm in between Grind and BAC.

Except a little more socially liberal.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

I have a serious question and I hope you do not take this in the wrong way: Should someone who is healthy and able to work who chooses not to be supported by those who do?

We shouldn't let them starve.

Of course, practically no one chooses not to work. Even in a nation like Sweden, where you get a 10k a year a GMI whether or not you work. So the question itself is a non-starter. Conservatives usually hold a very extreme definition of "chooses not to work" which means that all government welfare programs are wrong.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

Thank you brother.

I knew that but didn't think.

Its ok... we've come to expect that from you.

 

[blackascoal]

We shouldn't let them starve.

Of course, practically no one chooses not to work. Even in a nation like Sweden, where you get a 10k a year a GMI whether or not you work. So the question itself is a non-starter. Conservatives usually hold a very extreme definition of "chooses not to work" which means that all government welfare programs are wrong.

Good answer.

 

[Jarod]

Your PERSONAL issues Score is 90%.
Your ECONOMIC issues Score is 40%.

 

[blackascoal]

Its ok... we've come to expect that from you.

I knew you would jump on that.

Even genius makes mistakes.

 

[leaningright]

We shouldn't let them starve.

Of course, practically no one chooses not to work. Even in a nation like Sweden, where you get a 10k a year a GMI whether or not you work. So the question itself is a non-starter. Conservatives usually hold a very extreme definition of "chooses not to work" which means that all government welfare programs are wrong.

The problem is that I do not take the position that "all government welfare programs are wrong." I will say that I have seen such programs greatly benefit people who need them. But I have also seen abuses of the system and quite honestly it angers me. I wish there was a way to curb the abuses. Contrary to what you are implying with "practically no one chooses not to work" there is a fairly large percentage of people (receiving government benefits) in the county where I live who are perfectly healthy and choose not to work but rather find ways to beat the system, draw their government benefits, not work and just get by.

Now here's the deal, it doesn't anger me that I am working and they are not. It doesn't anger me as much that they are receiving tax dollars to support their habits and/or laziness. What angers me is that their children (and most have lots of them) don't receive the kind of support and care that they need to grow properly, physically or mentally. I know this because I deal directly with them in the school system. If I were king I'd remove the children and place them with families that would provide proper support and care. It has been done in a few cases around here (when some parents were arrested or for some other reason are out of the picture) and has been very successful, academically and socially. It is amazing to me how many are willing to take in children who aren't thier own and raise them to adulthood.

I have compiled a list of those that I know fall into the category of receiving these benefits and those who fall into the "abuse of the system" category runs around 20% (19.3% to be exact). That is not a huge amount and it might be high in my area only but I would like to find a way to eliminate the abuse and make these people get a job.

You say we shouldn't let them starve but in some of the cases I have seen which amounts to nothing short of child abuse, I'm not so sure I wouldn't take the kids out of the picture and do just that.

 

[blackascoal]

The problem is that I do not take the position that "all government welfare programs are wrong." I will say that I have seen such programs greatly benefit people who need them. But I have also seen abuses of the system and quite honestly it angers me. I wish there was a way to curb the abuses. Contrary to what you are implying with "practically no one chooses not to work" there is a fairly large percentage of people (receiving government benefits) in the county where I live who are perfectly healthy and choose not to work but rather find ways to beat the system, draw their government benefits, not work and just get by.

Now here's the deal, it doesn't anger me that I am working and they are not. It doesn't anger me as much that they are receiving tax dollars to support their habits and/or laziness. What angers me is that their children (and most have lots of them) don't receive the kind of support and care that they need to grow properly, physically or mentally. I know this because I deal directly with them in the school system. If I were king I'd remove the children and place them with families that would provide proper support and care. It has been done in a few cases around here (when some parents were arrested or for some other reason are out of the picture) and has been very successful, academically and socially. It is amazing to me how many are willing to take in children who aren't thier own and raise them to adulthood.

I have compiled a list of those that I know fall into the category of receiving these benefits and those who fall into the "abuse of the system" category runs around 20% (19.3% to be exact). That is not a huge amount and it might be high in my area only but I would like to find a way to eliminate the abuse and make these people get a job.

You say we shouldn't let them starve but in some of the cases I have seen which amounts to nothing short of child abuse, I'm not so sure I wouldn't take the kids out of the picture and do just that.

I respect your perspective as usual my friend, but the difference in our perspectives is that I tend to focus on society, not the individual whether good or bad, positive or negative. Start from what is in the best interest of society and work to eliminate the abuses. We should never allow the exception to define the whole.

I grew up poor, and for a several years my mother was on welfare with five kids, me being the oldest. I know what powdered milk and eggs taste like. I know how hard it is to stir the oil into the giant can of peanut butter we got along with the powdered milk and eggs. I know what it's like as a child having to go to the store with food stamps .. and hope no one sees you using them.

I also know what my father endured. When he was laid-off by Chrysler, and like many black men, couldn't find a job that paid more than peanuts, he worked long hours for those peanuts and refused to accept any assistance. One scene that will always remain in my mind is my brother and I walking over to my father's small apartment with a plate of food my mother had made for him. He was so hungry that when he sat down to eat his hands were shaking. I could see him fighting back the tears .. so I kissed him good bye, grabbed my younger brother and we left. My father was too proud to accept assistance and he gave my mother whatever peanuts he could make .. but he was not an anomaly or an exception. There were a lot of men doing just what my father was doing and a lot of families doing just what my mother was doing.

But both of them and all the families around them were just statistics on somebody's chart. Just figures to point at while exhalting the wonders of their ideology .. which is not at all what I'm suggesting you're doing good brother.

I don't believe the notion that large percentages of people don't want to work and/or are inherently lazy. Job fairs even today draw thousands of applicants for a few available jobs .. and those are just the ones who haven't already given up.

But there is an even deeper question here in my opinion .. the question of spirituality. I do not disconnect my spirituality from my politics. What best serves children, seniors, handicapped, and the whole of society is my concern first and foremost, not my anger at the exception.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

The problem is that I do not take the position that "all government welfare programs are wrong."

Of course not. I was being a little overgeneral. But the argument in itself, while infuriating to some people, is a little overused. As I mentioned before, usually when people "choose not to work" it's because of extreme mental disorders like schizophrenia. I can't rule out that NO mentally sound individual just randomly chooses not to work in Sweden and actually tries to live off the 10k, but it's so uncommon it's not a really huge argument against the concept (although I'm not here to argue for the GMI, it's way too expensive, about as expensive as a military). None of our welfare programs ARE DESIGNED to give welfare anything but a need basis anyway.

I will say that I have seen such programs greatly benefit people who need them. But I have also seen abuses of the system and quite honestly it angers me.

Of course it does. But it's usually obvious fraud that we just need to crack down on.

I wish there was a way to curb the abuses. Contrary to what you are implying with "practically no one chooses not to work" there is a fairly large percentage of people (receiving government benefits) in the county where I live who are perfectly healthy and choose not to work but rather find ways to beat the system, draw their government benefits, not work and just get by.

You mean like disability insurance?

Again, it's just not a huge part of the budget, and we simply need to crack down on the fraud, rather than get rid of the program.

Now here's the deal, it doesn't anger me that I am working and they are not. It doesn't anger me as much that they are receiving tax dollars to support their habits and/or laziness. What angers me is that their children (and most have lots of them) don't receive the kind of support and care that they need to grow properly, physically or mentally. I know this because I deal directly with them in the school system.
If I were king I'd remove the children and place them with families that would provide proper support and care.

Bad parents are a huge problem, and unfortunately, something the government can't tackle directly without being fascist, unless there's clear abuse. I don't really know what to say about it.

It has been done in a few cases around here (when some parents were arrested or for some other reason are out of the picture) and has been very successful, academically and socially. It is amazing to me how many are willing to take in children who aren't thier own and raise them to adulthood.

I have compiled a list of those that I know fall into the category of receiving these benefits and those who fall into the "abuse of the system" category runs around 20% (19.3% to be exact). That is not a huge amount and it might be high in my area only but I would like to find a way to eliminate the abuse and make these people get a job.

You say we shouldn't let them starve but in some of the cases I have seen which amounts to nothing short of child abuse, I'm not so sure I wouldn't take the kids out of the picture and do just that.

I wouldn't do that cus I'm not E-Vile!

 

[leaningright]

I respect your perspective as usual my friend, but the difference in our perspectives is that I tend to focus on society, not the individual whether good or bad, positive or negative. Start from what is in the best interest of society and work to eliminate the abuses. We should never allow the exception to define the whole.

I grew up poor, and for a several years my mother was on welfare with five kids, me being the oldest. I know what powdered milk and eggs taste like. I know how hard it is to stir the oil into the giant can of peanut butter we got along with the powdered milk and eggs. I know what it's like as a child having to go to the store with food stamps .. and hope no one sees you using them.

I also know what my father endured. When he was laid-off by Chrysler, and like many black men, couldn't find a job that paid more than peanuts, he worked long hours for those peanuts and refused to accept any assistance. One scene that will always remain in my mind is my brother and I walking over to my father's small apartment with a plate of food my mother had made for him. He was so hungry that when he sat down to eat his hands were shaking. I could see him fighting back the tears .. so I kissed him good bye, grabbed my younger brother and we left. My father was too proud to accept assistance and he gave my mother whatever peanuts he could make .. but he was not an anomaly or an exception. There were a lot of men doing just what my father was doing and a lot of families doing just what my mother was doing.

But both of them and all the families around them were just statistics on somebody's chart. Just figures to point at while exhalting the wonders of their ideology .. which is not at all what I'm suggesting you're doing good brother.

I don't believe the notion that large percentages of people don't want to work and/or are inherently lazy. Job fairs even today draw thousands of applicants for a few available jobs .. and those are just the ones who haven't already given up.

But there is an even deeper question here in my opinion .. the question of spirituality. I do not disconnect my spirituality from my politics. What best serves children, seniors, handicapped, and the whole of society is my concern first and foremost, not my anger at the exception.

Great response. Thanks. I suppose I tend to focus on individuals because in my line of work things are so individually (family) oriented. I must admit that when I see an abuse of the system that leads to (in my opinion anyway) an abuse of the kids I get riled.

Yours was truly a situation where what was available was used correctly.....as was mine. We qualified for help and my dad was in the military. I still like powdered eggs but can do without the stiff, separated peanut butter.

I am definitely with you on taking care of the children, handicapped and seniors. That is where the real help is needed, IMO.

 

[blackascoal]

Great response. Thanks. I suppose I tend to focus on individuals because in my line of work things are so individually (family) oriented. I must admit that when I see an abuse of the system that leads to (in my opinion anyway) an abuse of the kids I get riled.

Yours was truly a situation where what was available was used correctly.....as was mine. We qualified for help and my dad was in the military. I still like powdered eggs but can do without the stiff, separated peanut butter.

I am definitely with you on taking care of the children, handicapped and seniors. That is where the real help is needed, IMO.

I told you we were brothers.

Brothers of the Egg .. and stiff ass peanut butter.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Great response. Thanks. I suppose I tend to focus on individuals because in my line of work things are so individually (family) oriented. I must admit that when I see an abuse of the system that leads to (in my opinion anyway) an abuse of the kids I get riled.

Yours was truly a situation where what was available was used correctly.....as was mine. We qualified for help and my dad was in the military. I still like powdered eggs but can do without the stiff, separated peanut butter.

I am definitely with you on taking care of the children, handicapped and seniors. That is where the real help is needed, IMO.

20% of the people you know get all (or most) of their income from government programs?

Hmmm...

The only person I really know on disability is my uncle, who has diabetes. I don't know many people who get welfare for their children either, but isn't that limited to like two years anyway?

 

[leaningright]

20% of the people you know get all (or most) of their income from government programs?

Hmmm...

The only person I really know on disability is my uncle, who has diabetes. I don't know many people who get welfare for their children either, but isn't that limited to like two years anyway?

No Water. Around 20% of the people whom I deal with who are on welfare are abusing the system. I deal with a lot of underprivileged kids. Eighty percent of our public school's enrollment are considered socio-economically challenged.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

No Water. Around 20% of the people whom I deal with who are on welfare are abusing the system. I deal with a lot of underprivileged kids. Eighty percent of our public school's enrollment are considered socio-economically challenged.

I thought you were a preacha?

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

BTW when I called you evil I was being facetious.

 

[leaningright]

I am a Math teacher in a public school and I preach. I have been teaching Math for 21 years and preaching full time for 20.

 

[leaningright]

BTW when I called you evil I was being facetious.

I know.....no biggee.