Was 2020 election stolen or not?

[Taichiliberal]

Vacuous argument fallacy.

Void authority fallacy.

Argument of the stone fallacy. Bulverism fallacy. Assumption of victory fallacy. Attempted proof by void.

Yep, the parrot flies into the night squawking loud yet saying nothing. Adios, polly.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I never give up trying.

Nothing wrong with that as long as you don't hold out much expectation of success.

 

[Taichiliberal]

Quote Originally Posted by Taichiliberal View Post
No shyte, Sherlock. WTF do you think we're debating about? Hint: should the electoral college still exist.

Then why do you keep arguing about popular votes for president? You're clueless.

The electoral college and it's purpose has already been outlined in the federalist papers. It is designed to give each State representation in the process of choosing the President. Each State is part of the Union after all. The legislature of each State chooses it's electors. The number of electors chosen is based partially on population, but is also based on the simple fact that a State is a State of the Union.

1. Because why have one when it's usurped by the other? And since you can't guarantee that the electoral vote will accurately reflect the popular vote of the state, then YOUR vote can be (and in certain elections and states has been) nullified. Capice', Polly?

2. No shyte, Sherlock! I've stated as much previously with others if not yourself. See #1. If you don't get it by now, I can't help you.

 

[Flash]

2. Wrong again. What's announced on C-Span are the RESULTS....NOT what each individual electoral rep voted. That is my point and what the information we sussed over is about, that like the regular citizen in the popular vote, individual electoral voters are NOT obliged or required to announce who they voted for.....that comes out after the vote in a general breakdown....there is no way to guarantee that the electoral voter will rightfully represent the true majority in his/her state.

Not true. The certification from each state (see https://www.archives.gov/electoral-college/2020) contains the signatures of all electors and the number of electoral votes given to the presidential and vice presidential candidates.

If a state has ten electoral votes and Biden and Harris each get ten we know how every elector voted for both president an vp. This is what occurs in almost every state.

In a state like Nebraska that divides its 5 electoral votes among 3 congressional districts and 2 at-large we also know how all 5 of those electors voted because we know which congressional district they represent and which are the two at-large electors.

Because many states have fines for faithless electors or can even replace them we have to know which electors did not vote as pledged in order to punish them.

"When the Electoral College electors cast their ballots on Dec. 18, will we all know whom they voted for and if any of them are “faithless”?

We’ll know. Electors are already pledged to vote for the winner of the popular vote in their state (except for Maine and Nebraska, which cast their votes proportionately), so there’s nothing secret about it. If an elector decides to be faithless and vote for someone besides who they are pledged to, he or she would have to publicly refuse to sign the pre-printed certificate. Although exact procedures vary from state to state, in general on the day electors vote they meet in public at their respective state capitols."

"OLYMPIA — One-third of Washington’s 12 Democratic presidential electors went rogue on Monday, breaking pledges to honor the state’s popular vote for Democrat Hillary Clinton.In acts of symbolic protest, three voted instead for former Secretary of State Colin Powell, while one voted for Faith Spotted Eagle, a Native American elder and activist from South Dakota. Under state law, the four electors who didn’t heed Washington’s popular vote now face fines of up to $1,000. A spokesman for Washington Secretary of State Kim Wyman confirmed her office will enforce that penalty

Three of them — Bret Chiafalo, Levi Guerra and Esther John — supported Powell, who served as former U.S. secretary of state under Republican President George W. Bush. The trio was part of the “Hamilton electors” movement that hoped to ally with GOP electors in others states in denying Trump the required 270 electoral-vote majority he needed to be sworn in as president next month.

Robert Satiacum, a member of the Puyallup Tribe, had blasted Clinton for failing to take a strong stand against the proposed Dakota Access Pipeline despite its implications for the planet. On Monday, he said his electoral vote was for “a real leader” instead of Clinton, citing Faith Spotted Eagle’s environmental activism."

I now understand your point about exit polls.

5. Your opening sentence is dead wrong. FYI: https://www.archives.gov/electoral-...lished the,popular vote of qualified citizens.

Is this the opening sentence you are talking about? "Yes, electoral votes count regardless of who they voted for. However, these votes did not mean 1) that each state did not give most of its electoral votes to the popular vote winner; 2) or that those faithless electoral votes changed who won the electoral college and became president."

If so, please point out anything about that statement that is incorrect. Again, there have been relatively few faithless electors and never have they affected a presidential outcome.

If there had never been any faithless electors and they all voted for the popular vote winner in their state it would not have changed the result of any of the 59 presidential elections.

 

[Flash]

Nothing wrong with that as long as you don't hold out much expectation of success.

After being told the same false information many times I have given up most hope. It doesn't really involve explaining reality because he doesn't accept reality because it doesn't explain Trump's loss.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

After being told the same false information many times I have given up most hope. It doesn't really involve explaining reality because he doesn't accept reality because it doesn't explain Trump's loss.

IMO, it's more than a refusal to accept reality. It's an inability to accept reality.

 

[Into the Night]

Why are the electors from GA and AZ included in the electoral vote total?

What electors?

You are rejecting the actions of the state legislature that constitutionally submitted those electors to Congress to be certified.

Neither Georgia nor Arizona chose their electors.

Irrelevant. Nobody ever said Congress chose electors.

You did.

However, Congress did accept the slate of electors GA submitted and rejected any objections.

You did it again. Georgia never chose electors.

 

[Into the Night]

YEAH, WHEN ONE PARTY BLATANTLY VIOLATES THE CONSTITUTION, USING A PANDEMIC AS ITS "EXCUSE" TO STEAL AN ELECTION , BY ILLEGALLY CHANGING ELECTION LAWS AND STANDARDS,THUS ALLOWING UNVETTED, UNVERIFIED MAIL IN BALLOTS...WHAT DO YOU CALL IT??

AND, BTW, NO COURT EVER RULED ON THIS ISSUE...THE ILLEGAL CHANGING OF ELECTION LAWS, BY THE EXECUTIVE BRANCHES OF DEMOCRAT GOVERNED STATES...EVER.

GETTING AWAY WITH IT...DOESN'T MAKE IT LEGAL...

Bingo.

 

[Into the Night]

The state of Georgia certifies they did (three times). The electors were chosen based on the law passed by the state legislature and certified by the governor.

The governor of Georgia does not have authority to choose the electors. Only the legislature does.

The legislature does not actually choose the electors.

Yes it does. See Article II of the Constitution of the United States.

I presented the document proving the elector were certified. You can produce nothing showing any contested electors.

You produced random shit. The Constitution, and ONLY the Constitution is the authoritative reference of the Constitution.

Georgia officials certify election results showing Biden win

Never did. The executive branch of Georgia does not have that authority.

https://apnews.com/article/georgia-certify-election-joe-biden-ea8f867d740f3d7d42d0a55c1aef9e69

The Associated Press is not an authoritative reference of the Constitution. False authority fallacy.

Georgia Again Certifies Biden’s Win Recertification marks third time Georgia officials counted ballots cast in presidential election

Counting the same fake ballots again means nothing.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/georgia-again-certifies-bidens-win-11607372810

The Wall Street Journal is not an authoritative reference of the Constitution.

Attempts to contest the electors fell flat.

There were no electors from Georgia.

5 Republican Georgia U. S. House members objected to the results but could not get a single Republican Senator to co-sponsor.

Congress does not have authority to choose electors for Georgia.

Six Georgia state legislators sought a special session to select a separate set of electors but the governor refused to call the session.

The governor does not have the authority to prevent a session of a State legislature.

Not only that, but a Georgia law "prohibits the Georgia General Assembly from choosing delegates to the Electoral College except in cases where an election cannot be held"

Such a law is unconstitutional.

So, attempts to contest the electors failed.

What electors?

Irrelevant. Nobody ever said Congress chooses electors.

You did.

However, Congress did accept the slate of electors GA submitted.

You did it again.

Simply looking at the final electoral college vote shows all states cast electoral votes certified by those states and accepted by Congress.

You did it again. Congress does not have authority to choose the electors for any State.

 

[Into the Night]

Nothing wrong with that as long as you don't hold out much expectation of success.

He (and you) can deny the Constitution of the United States all you want. I already know neither of you recognize the Constitution of the United States nor the constitution of any State.

 

[Into the Night]

1. Because why have one when it's usurped by the other?

There is no popular vote for President of the United States. Only the legislatures can choose the electors. See Article II of the Constitution of the United States, which you don't recognize.

And since you can't guarantee that the electoral vote will accurately reflect the popular vote of the state, then YOUR vote can be (and in certain elections and states has been) nullified. Capice', Polly?

I don't vote for President of the United States. I vote to advise the Washington State legislature on which electors to choose. Only the legislature can choose.

2. No shyte, Sherlock! I've stated as much previously with others if not yourself. See #1. If you don't get it by now, I can't help you.

I don't need your help or want it. Your passive arrogance does not prove a thing.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

He (and you) can deny the Constitution of the United States all you want. I already know neither of you recognize the Constitution of the United States nor the constitution of any State.

See? Now others have to decide if your just a lowlife fucking liar since I've never denied the Constitution or if you are truly insane and believe your own bullshit....if not eat it after you play fingerpaint with it.

 

[Into the Night]

Because many states have fines for faithless electors or can even replace them we have to know which electors did not vote as pledged in order to punish them.

Unconstitutional. Such a law nullifies the electoral college.

"When the Electoral College electors cast their ballots on Dec. 18, will we all know whom they voted for and if any of them are “faithless”?

We’ll know. Electors are already pledged to vote for the winner of the popular vote in their state (except for Maine and Nebraska, which cast their votes proportionately), so there’s nothing secret about it. If an elector decides to be faithless and vote for someone besides who they are pledged to, he or she would have to publicly refuse to sign the pre-printed certificate. Although exact procedures vary from state to state, in general on the day electors vote they meet in public at their respective state capitols."

"OLYMPIA — One-third of Washington’s 12 Democratic presidential electors went rogue on Monday, breaking pledges to honor the state’s popular vote for Democrat Hillary Clinton.In acts of symbolic protest, three voted instead for former Secretary of State Colin Powell, while one voted for Faith Spotted Eagle, a Native American elder and activist from South Dakota. Under state law, the four electors who didn’t heed Washington’s popular vote now face fines of up to $1,000. A spokesman for Washington Secretary of State Kim Wyman confirmed her office will enforce that penalty

Kim Wyman does not have authority to change the Constitution of the United States nor the constitution of the State of Washington. She has no authority to enforce any such 'law'.

Robert Satiacum, a member of the Puyallup Tribe, had blasted Clinton for failing to take a strong stand against the proposed Dakota Access Pipeline despite its implications for the planet. On Monday, he said his electoral vote was for “a real leader” instead of Clinton, citing Faith Spotted Eagle’s environmental activism."

So? He has a right to his opinion, same as you.

Is this the opening sentence you are talking about? "Yes, electoral votes count regardless of who they voted for. However, these votes did not mean 1) that each state did not give most of its electoral votes to the popular vote winner; 2) or that those faithless electoral votes changed who won the electoral college and became president."

If so, please point out anything about that statement that is incorrect. Again, there have been relatively few faithless electors and never have they affected a presidential outcome.

If there had never been any faithless electors and they all voted for the popular vote winner in their state it would not have changed the result of any of the 59 presidential elections.

The President is not elected by popular vote.

 

[Into the Night]

After being told the same false information many times I have given up most hope. It doesn't really involve explaining reality because he doesn't accept reality because it doesn't explain Trump's loss.

Buzzword fallacy.

 

[Into the Night]

IMO, it's more than a refusal to accept reality. It's an inability to accept reality.

Buzzword fallacy.

 

[Into the Night]

See? Now others have to decide if your just a lowlife fucking liar since I've never denied the Constitution

You're a fucking liar. You do not recognize the Constitution of the United States nor any State constitution.

or if you are truly insane and believe your own bullshit....if not eat it after you play fingerpaint with it.

Insult fallacies.

 

[Nordberg]

The governor of Georgia does not have authority to choose the electors. Only the legislature does.

Yes it does. See Article II of the Constitution of the United States.

You produced random shit. The Constitution, and ONLY the Constitution is the authoritative reference of the Constitution.

Never did. The executive branch of Georgia does not have that authority.

The Associated Press is not an authoritative reference of the Constitution. False authority fallacy.

Counting the same fake ballots again means nothing.

The Wall Street Journal is not an authoritative reference of the Constitution.

There were no electors from Georgia.

Congress does not have authority to choose electors for Georgia.

The governor does not have the authority to prevent a session of a State legislature.

Such a law is unconstitutional.

What electors?

You did.

You did it again.

You did it again. Congress does not have authority to choose the electors for any State.[/Q
What an insane list of crazy things to say. Circular logic and crazy shit listed one after another. One of my favs is the constitution is the authority on the constitution. That is akin to defending the bible by using the bible as an authority. It makes no sense. The Supremes function is interpreting it. It also is constantly being interpreted by Congress. https://www.everycrsreport.com/reports/R44729.html

 

[Grokmaster]

The governor of Georgia does not have authority to choose the electors. Only the legislature does.

Yes it does. See Article II of the Constitution of the United States.

You produced random shit. The Constitution, and ONLY the Constitution is the authoritative reference of the Constitution.

Never did. The executive branch of Georgia does not have that authority.

The Associated Press is not an authoritative reference of the Constitution. False authority fallacy.

Counting the same fake ballots again means nothing.

The Wall Street Journal is not an authoritative reference of the Constitution.

There were no electors from Georgia.

Congress does not have authority to choose electors for Georgia.

The governor does not have the authority to prevent a session of a State legislature.

Such a law is unconstitutional.

What electors?

You did.

You did it again.

You did it again. Congress does not have authority to choose the electors for any State.[/Q
What an insane list of crazy things to say. Circular logic and crazy shit listed one after another. One of my favs is the constitution is the authority on the constitution. That is akin to defending the bible by using the bible as an authority. It makes no sense. The Supremes function is interpreting it. It also is constantly being interpreted by Congress. https://www.everycrsreport.com/reports/R44729.html

THE STATE LEGISLATURES DO...AND ONLY THE STATE LEGISLATURES CAN CONTROL THE MANNER OF THE ELECTIONS...UNLIKE THE BULLSHIT THE CRIME-O-CRATS GOT AWAY WITH LAST YEAR.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

You're a fucking liar. You do not recognize the Constitution of the United States nor any State constitution.

Insult fallacies.

People are free to think what they want but I believe you truly are a paranoid schizophrenic and probably other disorders. The fact you are declaring my views about the Constitution as facts which you cannot possibly know proves you are either a bullshitter or insane...maybe a little of both.

 

[Flash]

What electors?

Neither Georgia nor Arizona chose their electors.

Sure they did. The electors are the ones who signed the documents that certified the electoral votes on December 14 from those states and that were counted by Congress on January 6. They are now included in the total 538 total electors officially counted for the election results.

You are not reading again. I said Congress accepted and counted the electoral votes certified by the states. I did not say Congress chose those electors.