Answer to a failing economy: FAIR TAX!

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

We should sculpt policy to return us to a manufacturing economy, not try to paper over the ravages of idiotic globalist policy with a stupid regressive tax scheme.

The thing is, most of the loss of manufacturing is due to technology. We once had many more manufacturing jobs, and we sold stuff to foreign countries because they lacked the ability to make the stuff. As technology increased, we became unionized and less productive, while the foreign countries learned how to make the stuff themselves. Now, they sell us the stuff cheaper than we can make it, and we have no manufacturing to speak of anymore.

I listen to your rants all the time, and what you want, is some kind of fucked up fascist isolationist totalitarian authoritarianism, run by YOU, the Supreme Ruler! You are borderline insane... no, I take that back... full fledged insane! But I digress...

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

I oppose a national sales tax, you have to look at other nations that tried it with the same promises of alieviating other taxes. Take Canada for instance when the Conservatives introduced the GST with that same goal Boortz talks about of eventually replacing the income tax.
Nearly 20 years later the GST is still there and income tax has never really come down.

In Australia the GST that Howard introduced reduced income tax but never replaced it and you can bet it will rise under the current Labor prime minister at some point.

Trusting a government on this is a bit like handing your torturer a cat o nine tails and telling him he then no longer needs to use the whip on you. In the end, to the one in power, it is just one more weapon you are giving them.

The real focus has to stay on spending cuts, if you want government to get off your back, you've got to get your hands out of its pocket. The rest will take care of itself.

Well Dano, before I would ever sign on to the Fair Tax, it would have to be done with the abolition of the IRS and Federal Income Tax, as well as Corporate and Cap Gains taxes. That is the only way it works for me. Otherwise, you are right, we don't need to implement an "additional" tax, that would essentially be the "VAT" tax proposed by the liberals, and I am not in favor of that.

I am merely looking at what the Fair Tax system would do for jobs and the economy. I think it radically changes the game, in terms of international competition for business and industry. Suddenly, we are able to compete with the Europeans again, we are able to offer all these rich billionaires a reason to re-open manufacturing in the states, as opposed to moving to Indonesia, where they can avoid taxation. In the end, we wind up with the same dollars going into the coffers, perhaps a whole lot more, and we generate business out the ass because there is an incentive to do business in the states again.

As it stands now, morons like Waterhead are going to keep "taxing the rich" until the rich move to Switzerland and say, FUCK YOU! We'll keep seeing the Japanese and Chinese beat our brains in with manufacturing and industry, because we lack the sense to do anything to change the dynamic.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

As it stands now, morons like Waterhead are going to keep "taxing the rich" until the rich move to Switzerland and say, FUCK YOU!

They'd pay higher taxes in Switzerland and would have far fewer business opportunities.

Unless they gave up their American citizenship, which would be business disaster, they'd have to pay taxes anyway. Moving out of America to pay less taxes would be like burning your plantation so you don't have to feed your slaves. Moving to Switzerland would be like burning down your plantation and, at the same time, being required to feed even more people.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

They'd pay higher taxes in Switzerland and would have far fewer business opportunities.

Unless they gave up their American citizenship, which would be business disaster, they'd have to pay taxes anyway. Moving out of America to pay less taxes would be like burning your plantation so you don't have to feed your slaves. Moving to Switzerland would be like burning down your plantation and, at the same time, being required to feed even more people.

Let's pretend.... Let's say I am a multi-billionaire who may be interested in starting up a new venture in the US. Explain to me what I can expect from YOU the US Federal Government? Higher taxation? Awww, so sorry... I am not persuaded to open up a new business with MY money! More regulation? Aww, again, so sorry... not persuaded! Now let's imagine you tell me, Dixie, you won't have to pay any more corporate taxes! Ding! Ding! Ding! You got my attention now! Let's open up shop tomorrow! No more capital gains taxes? Ding! Ding! Ding! Again, you have my undivided attention! When can we get started?

Here's the point you need to try to grasp in your otherwise empty and bulbous head... Rich people do not need to make an income! They are RICH! They already have everything they need to live a comfortable life, their families are taken care of, they have no outstanding debt, and if they never earn another penny, it doesn't bother them in the least, it just gives them more time to go fishing or yachting, or whatever rich people like to do! The more you try to punish them or penalize them for making income and profit, the less inclined they are to do so!

 

[Sammy Jankis]

The thing is, most of the loss of manufacturing is due to technology. We once had many more manufacturing jobs, and we sold stuff to foreign countries because they lacked the ability to make the stuff. As technology increased, we became unionized and less productive, while the foreign countries learned how to make the stuff themselves. Now, they sell us the stuff cheaper than we can make it, and we have no manufacturing to speak of anymore.

I listen to your rants all the time, and what you want, is some kind of fucked up fascist isolationist totalitarian authoritarianism, run by YOU, the Supreme Ruler! You are borderline insane... no, I take that back... full fledged insane! But I digress...

Not authoritarian. Not fascist. Just a nation that's sets policy to maintain a middle class. A government which functions to facilitate the success of all sectors of society. Im not talking about handouts, just more protectionist trade policy which puts business inside a framework of other concerns. It's frankly a security risk to become this dependant on foreign powers. We lose control of our supply chain in event of any serious war. national security advocates should understand that.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Let's pretend.... Let's say I am a multi-billionaire who may be interested in starting up a new venture in the US. Explain to me what I can expect from YOU the US Federal Government? Higher taxation? Awww, so sorry... I am not persuaded to open up a new business with MY money! More regulation? Aww, again, so sorry... not persuaded! Now let's imagine you tell me, Dixie, you won't have to pay any more corporate taxes! Ding! Ding! Ding! You got my attention now! Let's open up shop tomorrow! No more capital gains taxes? Ding! Ding! Ding! Again, you have my undivided attention! When can we get started?

Again, corporations pay roughly the same level of taxes in the US as in most other developed countries (actually, probably a little less, due to the huge amount of loopholes). If we eliminated corporate income taxes, other countries would eliminate them in response, and we'd be exactly where we were economically, except with higher taxes on individuals. Your understanding of economics is on the level of a pre-schooler.

Ideally, we should just set up a treaty with other nations, and agree to keep our corporate taxes above 30%.

Why stop at eliminating all of their taxes? Why not provide massive subsidies. Then we'd get even more jobs! Just make our individuals into constant slaves who provide the corporations with more and more and more money, work longer, harder, and making less. That's where right-wing economics leads us. I just want a fair shake for the individual. Corporations should not be favored.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Here's the point you need to try to grasp in your otherwise empty and bulbous head... Rich people do not need to make an income! They are RICH! They already have everything they need to live a comfortable life, their families are taken care of, they have no outstanding debt, and if they never earn another penny, it doesn't bother them in the least, it just gives them more time to go fishing or yachting, or whatever rich people like to do! The more you try to punish them or penalize them for making income and profit, the less inclined they are to do so!

And if they aren't making money, they're not paying taxes anyway.

God you're a retard.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Again, corporations pay roughly the same level of taxes in the US as in most other developed countries (actually, probably a little less, due to the huge amount of loopholes). If we eliminated corporate income taxes, other countries would eliminate them in response, and we'd be exactly where we were economically, except with higher taxes on individuals. Your understanding of economics is on the level of a pre-schooler.

Ideally, we should just set up a treaty with other nations, and agree to keep our corporate taxes above 30%.

Why stop at eliminating all of their taxes? Why not provide massive subsidies. Then we'd get even more jobs! Just make our individuals into constant slaves who provide the corporations with more and more and more money, work longer, harder, and making less. That's where right-wing economics leads us. I just want a fair shake for the individual. Corporations should not be favored.

Well, elimination of corporate taxes would generate a lot of new business, that is common sense. America has an enormous amount of educated work force and consumers, so international business would be clamoring to come here, if they didn't have to pay corporate taxes. This would create a high demand for quality people to fill the jobs, which would result in much higher average salaries for all. The Fair Tax would immediately put about 20-30% more money in your pocket, plus your boss would be giving you raises left and right to keep you from leaving to take one of the many new opportunities out there.... seems like this is something you'd WANT for people, instead of continuing to watch unemployment rise and wages fall.... but then, you are a Communist, you probably enjoy watching people suffer.

And if they aren't making money, they're not paying taxes anyway.

God you're a retard.

Yeah, but if there was some incentive for them to make money, they probably would be more inclined to do that. As it currently stands, they have no such inclination and aren't earning an income to tax. The point is, you can't punish the rich by making them pay more income tax, they don't need an income, they are rich... they will do without an income if you try to punish them too much, and that is what is happening now. Many of the wealthy investors and entrepreneurs have just stopped earning an income in the US, they are either enjoying retirement or investing in Dubai or somewhere else. That doesn't do us much good here, and the more you keep pushing this stupidity, the more you will continue to push the rich people away from the US and into other markets. The only real way for us to change it, is to stop trying to punish these people, and start giving them an incentive to make money again in America. That's the thing about rich people, most of them actually LIKE to make money, that's how they got to be rich in the first place! They don't like to make money and then turn it over to the government, and they have no motivation to do that whatsoever.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Well, elimination of corporate taxes would generate a lot of new business, that is common sense. America has an enormous amount of educated work force and consumers, so international business would be clamoring to come here, if they didn't have to pay corporate taxes. This would create a high demand for quality people to fill the jobs, which would result in much higher average salaries for all. The Fair Tax would immediately put about 20-30% more money in your pocket, plus your boss would be giving you raises left and right to keep you from leaving to take one of the many new opportunities out there.... seems like this is something you'd WANT for people, instead of continuing to watch unemployment rise and wages fall.... but then, you are a Communist, you probably enjoy watching people suffer.

The consumption tax has it's disadvantages. You're just painting it as a universal panacea. There's a reason that none of the nations that have adopted flat taxes have had particularly large economic growth. And nations that largely fund their government through VAT's, like Romania, also don't experience much larger growth. I doubt the "Fair Tax" would have much effect at all.

In the end, a trillion dollars taken out of the economy is a trillion goddamn dollars out of the economy, no matter how you do it.

Yeah, but if there was some incentive for them to make money

There is. A 35% tax does not strain you if you're making a million dollars a year.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

They don't like to make money and then turn it over to the government, and they have no motivation to do that whatsoever.

A rich person minds turning over their money to the government a lot less than a poor person. Giving away 35% of your million dollars is not nearly as tough as giving away 10% of your 10 thousand...

 

[KingCondanomation]

Anything is possible in a paranoid universe where the government just wants to gobble up your money and throw it into a black hole. However, we live in reality, not danoland.

The "fair" tax would specifically abolish the income tax. It's not there to incrementally replace the system. The only way to get the income tax back would be to pass a bill raising taxes in that manner - good luck getting elected on this platform.

Danoland? Would you shut the fuck up you silly little child. It's not an alternate universe, it's 2 real world examples in Australia and Canada where a consumption tax was supposed to replace the income tax and never did.

I don't consider social welfare a black hole, I consider it a progressively dependent thing that has no limits and just keeps taking over more and more roles that individuals handled reasonably well before it existed (ie: retirement, healthcare, daycare, etc...). And at most the main opposition to that largest and hardest to stop of government spending is grumbling.
Try and remember (and I say this without insulting you but as a matter of fact), you have not actually been out in the real world, you've never been to Liberal Democrat run inner cities where people are reduced to looking to government for damn near everything from food to housing to income.
Your entire viewpoint is framed by your microcosm of a world where you seek revenge on the Conservative culture you were raised with and rebel against and your only link to anything outside that has come from online media which even then you were barely almost lazy enough to not read more than tidbits of.

I don't trust government to replace one tax with another, I trust them to make promises and not keep them - that is what they have done and it won't be any different in this case.
Reduce government spending and reduce the justification for taxes thus forming the political will to reduce them.

 

[KingCondanomation]

A rich person minds turning over their money to the government a lot less than a poor person. Giving away 35% of your million dollars is not nearly as tough as giving away 10% of your 10 thousand...

Although this is true, it's the wrong way to think about it for those who do care. What can that poor person do to avoid paying? Not a lot.
Rich people on the other hand have accountants who understand complex ways of avoiding taxation, they have access to offshore tax havens and are well known to use them and as a last resort they are much more mobile and can leave states or the country itself if the taxes are not what they like.

There is a REASON why communist countries forbid basic freedom of mobility and letting you have the freedom to escape from them.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Your entire viewpoint is framed by your microcosm of a world where you seek revenge on the Conservative culture you were raised with and rebel against and your only link to anything outside that has come from online media which even then you were barely almost lazy enough to not read more than tidbits of.

^

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Rich people on the other hand have accountants who understand complex ways of avoiding taxation,

Which is why I support just doing away with the current tax code and building a new one from scratch.

they have access to offshore tax havens and are well known to use them and as a last resort they are much more mobile and can leave states or the country itself if the taxes are not what they like.

This is one reason I don't support super-large progressive taxes. In a globalized world, simply punishing the rich would cause capitol flight. The reason we could get away with 70% taxes in the 70's was because it was very difficult to leave your country of birth.

Taxes at current levels don't seem to be doing that, though. And I suspect that if we lowered them much, it would just encourage others to do the same, and wouldn't provide much economic benefit from a competitive standpoint (I'm not saying it would have no economic benefit, it just wouldn't cause economic benefit due to capital inflow).

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

You're a brilliant man, dano. And that's why I hate you. Grind's right.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

There is a REASON why communist countries forbid basic freedom of mobility and letting you have the freedom to escape from them.

Yes. They knew that the rich would simply flee. They tried to frame it in an awkwardly nationalistic sense (the rich are betraying us!), which hypocritical from a leftist standpoint. They were clearly just trying to avoid capitol outflow, and knew that any way they tried to frame this it wouldn't look moral. I've read the Communist Manifesto (it's an idiotic book, BTW, don't waste your time), and Marx actually specifically mentions banning emigration.

The communists are an example of practically everything that can go wrong with leftists going wrong. But the socialistic philosophy did work in some places, like Sweden. I'd say it's like the difference between the liberal philosophy that was adopted in the revolutionary US and the liberal philosophy that was adopted in France.

In one place, they were moderate, and it was relatively successful. In another, they instituted a reign of terror to have their philosophy drilled into society down to a tee. And no philosophy is completely right.

 

[Timshel]

This is one reason I don't support super-large progressive taxes. In a globalized world, simply punishing the rich would cause capitol flight. The reason we could get away with 70% taxes in the 70's was because it was very difficult to leave your country of birth.

Dixie is overstating the impact that the tax code has on earning extra income. But, at 70% rates his examples become very real. Capital flight is not the only problem then and maybe not even the biggest problem.

If one makes 200/hr and pays 35% taxes on the last dollar earned, the disincentive is fairly small. They are still making $130/hr after taxes. Raise that to 70% and they are only making $60/hr. Many will just take a vacation.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

The consumption tax has it's disadvantages. You're just painting it as a universal panacea. There's a reason that none of the nations that have adopted flat taxes have had particularly large economic growth. And nations that largely fund their government through VAT's, like Romania, also don't experience much larger growth. I doubt the "Fair Tax" would have much effect at all.

In the end, a trillion dollars taken out of the economy is a trillion goddamn dollars out of the economy, no matter how you do it.

There is. A 35% tax does not strain you if you're making a million dollars a year.

*sigh* Why is it, you constantly run to examples of what "other countries" do? How can we LEAD if we have our noses up the ass of another country, trying to emulate them? What is your fascination with the smell of French ass?

What "trillion dollars out of the economy" are you yapping about? The Fair Tax brings in the exact same number of dollars, maybe even more, if consumer spending rises, which it probably would, since people would have a much larger chunk of change to spend! It's just common sense!

The "strain" on millionaires is NOT the issue! $350,000.00 will go a LONG way in Dubai, where there is no corporate tax! IF you were wealthy, and wanted to make more money, why the hell would you invest in the US and pay the government 35% of what you make, when you could do the same deal in Dubai and NOT pay the 35%? What would possess you to do that? You just LOVE throwing your money away because you want so badly to provide free health care to 20 million illegal aliens? So you can line the pockets of Democrat cronies and their lobbyist friends? Maybe so you can perpetuate the illusion of the Social Security system actually being solvent for another year or two? Hell, I can think of a lot better ways to spend $350,000.00!

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Dixie is overstating the impact that the tax code has on earning extra income. But, at 70% rates his examples become very real. Capital flight is not the only problem then and maybe not even the biggest problem.

If one makes 200/hr and pays 35% taxes on the last dollar earned, the disincentive is fairly small. They are still making $130/hr after taxes. Raise that to 70% and they are only making $60/hr. Many will just take a vacation.

Yeah, 70% was a bit of an extreme example to pick. The taxation policies of the 40's-70's were more of a maximum wage policy than anything else. Again, only something you can get away with when your economy isn't globalized.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

What "trillion dollars out of the economy" are you yapping about? The Fair Tax brings in the exact same number of dollars, maybe even more, if consumer spending rises, which it probably would, since people would have a much larger chunk of change to spend! It's just common sense!

At the very least, the federal government needs take a trillion dollars out of the economy to fund it's discretionary spending. Whether you take that through a consumption tax or an income tax, it's going to have a significant economic impact. One is not largely better than the other. The main economic impact is always going to be from the trillion dollars sucked out of the economy.