Some comparison as to why the order to kill survivors was a war crime

Jake Starkey

Verified User
In March 1944 Heinz-Wilhelm Eck, commanding U-852, was in the South Atlantic, headed for his allocated patrol area in the Indian Ocean. He had been warned that anti-U-boat patrols were especially vigilant in this area. The U-boat spotted and sank the SS Peleus. Eleven survivors were clinging to the wreckage. Eck ordered them machine gunned. Amazingly, three survived the massacre and were rescued thirty-two days later. They would testify against Eck in a British court-martial. Ten days later they were executed by firing squad. www.usni.org/magazines/naval-history-magazine/1997/february/peleus-war-crimes-trial

An investigation should be held to see who, if anyone, gave a no survivors order in the case of the recent news reports that the US Navy conducted a second attack on two helpless survivors of a narco-terrorist drug bust strike.

Should Hegseth be investigated?
 
In March 1944 Heinz-Wilhelm Eck, commanding U-852, was in the South Atlantic, headed for his allocated patrol area in the Indian Ocean. He had been warned that anti-U-boat patrols were especially vigilant in this area. The U-boat spotted and sank the SS Peleus. Eleven survivors were clinging to the wreckage. Eck ordered them machine gunned. Amazingly, three survived the massacre and were rescued thirty-two days later. They would testify against Eck in a British court-martial. Ten days later they were executed by firing squad. www.usni.org/magazines/naval-history-magazine/1997/february/peleus-war-crimes-trial

An investigation should be held to see who, if anyone, gave a no survivors order in the case of the recent news reports that the US Navy conducted a second attack on two helpless survivors of a narco-terrorist drug bust strike.

Should Hegseth be investigated?
Absolutely!
 
In March 1944 Heinz-Wilhelm Eck, commanding U-852, was in the South Atlantic, headed for his allocated patrol area in the Indian Ocean. He had been warned that anti-U-boat patrols were especially vigilant in this area. The U-boat spotted and sank the SS Peleus. Eleven survivors were clinging to the wreckage. Eck ordered them machine gunned. Amazingly, three survived the massacre and were rescued thirty-two days later. They would testify against Eck in a British court-martial. Ten days later they were executed by firing squad. www.usni.org/magazines/naval-history-magazine/1997/february/peleus-war-crimes-trial

An investigation should be held to see who, if anyone, gave a no survivors order in the case of the recent news reports that the US Navy conducted a second attack on two helpless survivors of a narco-terrorist drug bust strike.

Should Hegseth be investigated?
If there is evidence hegseth gave such an order, yes.

As to your story I would say they were enemy combatants and they still represented a threat even if it was a future threat. In this case we aren't in a war and they weren't enemy combatants in a war.
 
The British proceedings believed the sailors were no long enemy combatants.

If the President is labeling them terrorists, they are enemy combatants. But that designation is questionable.
 
AI Summary:

From the U.S. Military Code of Conduct
  • personnel who are disabled and no longer a threat
  • and survivors of maritime warfare who are “out of combat” due to ship destruction

The Navy handbook states that:



  • Enemy personnel in the water from a destroyed vessel are considered hors de combat (out of the fight)
  • They may not be intentionally attacked unless they take hostile action or present a threat
  • There is a duty to render assistance if feasible, consistent with mission requirements


These rules come primarily from:


  1. Law of Armed Conflict
    (also called the Law of War — the core legal standard the U.S. military must follow)
  2. DoD Directive 2311.01
    which makes compliance with the Law of War mandatory for the U.S. military.
  3. Geneva Conventions
    which the U.S. adheres to and trains under as part of LOAC.
  4. U.S. Navy Commander's Handbook on the Law of Naval Operations
    which does explicitly address people in the water after a ship is destroyed.
 
^ The above US Code of Conduct rules apply to groups the US was in active war with and yet STILL could not just kill any survivors clinging to a destroyed ship wreck.

Those are people who would have actively been trying to kill the US sailors until they sunk them and yet STILL they could not just kill them.
 
In March 1944 Heinz-Wilhelm Eck, commanding U-852, was in the South Atlantic, headed for his allocated patrol area in the Indian Ocean. He had been warned that anti-U-boat patrols were especially vigilant in this area. The U-boat spotted and sank the SS Peleus. Eleven survivors were clinging to the wreckage. Eck ordered them machine gunned. Amazingly, three survived the massacre and were rescued thirty-two days later. They would testify against Eck in a British court-martial. Ten days later they were executed by firing squad. www.usni.org/magazines/naval-history-magazine/1997/february/peleus-war-crimes-trial

An investigation should be held to see who, if anyone, gave a no survivors order in the case of the recent news reports that the US Navy conducted a second attack on two helpless survivors of a narco-terrorist drug bust strike.

Should Hegseth be investigated?
Great example of my statement: The only true war crime is losing.

The ONLY reason Eck was tried was because Germany lost.

In the case of these go-fast drug boats the crew is either 3 or 4. They have no lifejackets or other survival gear.

So, to your question, "Should Hegseth be investigated?" I'd answer "Hell no!" One major reason is he gave only a general order (via Trump) to take out these drug boats using maximum force. The military at lower levels are the ones determining the targets and launching the strikes.
 
If there is evidence hegseth gave such an order, yes.

As to your story I would say they were enemy combatants and they still represented a threat even if it was a future threat.
The Geneva Convention says otherwise.

In this case we aren't in a war and they weren't enemy combatants in a war.
I see you are saying it was just plain ole murder.
 
Great example of my statement: The only true war crime is losing.

The ONLY reason Eck was tried was because Germany lost.
Not at all true. The US has on several occasions charged and convicted US soldiers of war crimes.
In the case of these go-fast drug boats the crew is either 3 or 4. They have no lifejackets or other survival gear.

So, to your question, "Should Hegseth be investigated?" I'd answer "Hell no!" One major reason is he gave only a general order (via Trump) to take out these drug boats using maximum force. The military at lower levels are the ones determining the targets and launching the strikes.
Interesting argument since Hegseth was in the room when the strike occurred. He was just an innocent observer with no command responsibility? That has to be one of the stupidest attempts to absolve him I have ever seen.
 
Not at all true. The US has on several occasions charged and convicted US soldiers of war crimes.

If you read Fighting Power by van Creveld, you find that's not true. Most charges that could be prosecuted that way were charged simply as their civilian equivalent, murder, rape, etc. There's plenty of personal anecdotes, like one in a volume of The 36th Infantry Division Historical Quarterly where an then officer of that division commanding an infantry company brought in a German officer POW to the battalion HQ. The major commanding the battalion ordered the junior officer to escort the German to the rear. The junior officer--the man recounting this as having been that officer--objected as his company was to mount an attack in like an hour and he felt he needed to be there to command. The major overruled him. The junior officer took the German outside the HQ location, shot him dead--and yes, this guy says he did it--and then told the major the German "tried to escape."
The major wanted to do what you say, bring him up as a war criminal and court martial him. The colonel in charge of the regiment, chewed the major out saying that officer was right and needed to be with his company for the attack and it was just too bad about the German. The major was told to STFU and get back to winning the war. The guy says the major soon became more aware of what it meant to be on the frontlines and became a "good officer."

Otto Skorzeny, Hitler's equivalent of the OSS or MI 6 was tried for various war crimes at Nuremburg after the war. His defense lawyer brought in the US and British equivalent officers from the OSS and MI 6 where they testified that they did all the same dirty tricks--like dressing in enemy uniforms, assassinating officers, using torture to get information, etc. Skorzeny's case was thrown out since the Allies would have had to try their own "dirty tricks" guys for the war crimes Skorzeny was accused of.

That's just two of hundreds, if not thousands, of "war crime" stories from WW 2 to be had.
Interesting argument since Hegseth was in the room when the strike occurred. He was just an innocent observer with no command responsibility? That has to be one of the stupidest attempts to absolve him I have ever seen.
Hegseth wasn't in command. He wasn't giving the orders.

In any case, my argument still stands. The only true war crime is losing.

Hegseth won't be tried. The officers commanding those strikes won't be tried. In fact, if you started trying military officers every time they made some decision to use force that might be questionable, you'd quickly have no officers making such decisions and you'd lose every war you tried to fight.

It is the height of asininity to think that the military is just a police force equipped with better weapons. That sort of utterly imbecilic thinking gets people killed. The military isn't there to "bring the bad guys to justice" or serve a warrant. They are there to kill the enemy, break all their things, and fuck everything and anything the designated enemy has.
Trump has designated these drug cartels as international terrorists. In using the military, he is doing what should be done. The military doesn't give warning commands or read the persons targeted their goddamned rights. They blow the fuck out of them with overwhelming force and kill them all.

You think this is some sort of law enforcement action? It isn't. It's military action short of war and it's something the US, and every other nation on Earth, has practiced since prehistoric times.
 
If you read Fighting Power by van Creveld, you find that's not true. Most charges that could be prosecuted that way were charged simply as their civilian equivalent, murder, rape, etc. There's plenty of personal anecdotes, like one in a volume of The 36th Infantry Division Historical Quarterly where an then officer of that division commanding an infantry company brought in a German officer POW to the battalion HQ. The major commanding the battalion ordered the junior officer to escort the German to the rear. The junior officer--the man recounting this as having been that officer--objected as his company was to mount an attack in like an hour and he felt he needed to be there to command. The major overruled him. The junior officer took the German outside the HQ location, shot him dead--and yes, this guy says he did it--and then told the major the German "tried to escape."
The major wanted to do what you say, bring him up as a war criminal and court martial him. The colonel in charge of the regiment, chewed the major out saying that officer was right and needed to be with his company for the attack and it was just too bad about the German. The major was told to STFU and get back to winning the war. The guy says the major soon became more aware of what it meant to be on the frontlines and became a "good officer."

Otto Skorzeny, Hitler's equivalent of the OSS or MI 6 was tried for various war crimes at Nuremburg after the war. His defense lawyer brought in the US and British equivalent officers from the OSS and MI 6 where they testified that they did all the same dirty tricks--like dressing in enemy uniforms, assassinating officers, using torture to get information, etc. Skorzeny's case was thrown out since the Allies would have had to try their own "dirty tricks" guys for the war crimes Skorzeny was accused of.

That's just two of hundreds, if not thousands, of "war crime" stories from WW 2 to be had.

Hegseth wasn't in command. He wasn't giving the orders.

In any case, my argument still stands. The only true war crime is losing.

Hegseth won't be tried. The officers commanding those strikes won't be tried. In fact, if you started trying military officers every time they made some decision to use force that might be questionable, you'd quickly have no officers making such decisions and you'd lose every war you tried to fight.

It is the height of asininity to think that the military is just a police force equipped with better weapons. That sort of utterly imbecilic thinking gets people killed. The military isn't there to "bring the bad guys to justice" or serve a warrant. They are there to kill the enemy, break all their things, and fuck everything and anything the designated enemy has.
Trump has designated these drug cartels as international terrorists. In using the military, he is doing what should be done. The military doesn't give warning commands or read the persons targeted their goddamned rights. They blow the fuck out of them with overwhelming force and kill them all.

You think this is some sort of law enforcement action? It isn't. It's military action short of war and it's something the US, and every other nation on Earth, has practiced since prehistoric times.
Two points.
1. It is currently 2025 not 1944
2. The Secretary of Defense IS in command.
 
In March 1944 Heinz-Wilhelm Eck, commanding U-852, was in the South Atlantic, headed for his allocated patrol area in the Indian Ocean. He had been warned that anti-U-boat patrols were especially vigilant in this area. The U-boat spotted and sank the SS Peleus. Eleven survivors were clinging to the wreckage. Eck ordered them machine gunned. Amazingly, three survived the massacre and were rescued thirty-two days later. They would testify against Eck in a British court-martial. Ten days later they were executed by firing squad. www.usni.org/magazines/naval-history-magazine/1997/february/peleus-war-crimes-trial

An investigation should be held to see who, if anyone, gave a no survivors order in the case of the recent news reports that the US Navy conducted a second attack on two helpless survivors of a narco-terrorist drug bust strike.

Should Hegseth be investigated?
An order to kill civilians is a war crime. Giving an order to kill all survivors after a strike is a war crime. Hegseth has been advocating for over a decade to violate the rules of war. It's in his book and probably why Trump chose him.

Now the little bitches are throwing ADM Bailey under the bus. Who didn't see this coming?
 
Two points.
1. It is currently 2025 not 1944

Doesn't change that the US doesn't prosecute their own for war crimes except on very rare occasions like Lt. Calley in Vietnam.
2. The Secretary of Defense IS in command.
No, the Secretary of War is not. The Secretary of War is an advisor to the President and the equivalent of a staff officer. The Secretary of War is not in the direct chain of command.
 
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