If God were real, you wouldn’t need a book

[ZenMode]

You cannot make the evidence just disappear, Void.

You've yet to make evidence appear.

 

[ZenMode]

A circular argument is NOT a fallacy, Void.

Trying to prove one True or False, however, as you do, IS.

The other name of the circular argument is the Argument of Faith. ALL religions are based on faith...even yours.

My beliefs are based on evidence. The beliefs of religious people are based on faith, because, again, if all writings about/memories of the Christian god were wiped from the earth, there would be nothing to revive the belief of the Christian god.

You are as atheistic as I am as it relates to all of the gods that man has ever made up, except one. There is no more evidence for your God than there is for all those other gods you don't believe in.

 

[ZenMode]

A circular argument is NOT a fallacy, Void.

Trying to prove one True or False, however, as you do, IS.

The other name of the circular argument is the Argument of Faith. ALL religions are based on faith...even yours.

"Trying to prove one True or False, however, as you do, IS."

It's not proving anything. It's aligning ones beliefs with available evidence or lack of evidence in this case.

 

[ZenMode]

You are not reasoning. You are already locked in several paradoxes, NONE of which you have resolved. You continue to make fallacy after fallacy.
Inversion fallacy. You cannot blame your word games on me or anybody else.

 

[Margot]

You've yet to make evidence appear.

I never play the "evidence" game with Atheists, I tell them they made a choice now walk the path you chose!

 

[gmark77]

I never play the "evidence" game with Atheists,

To be quite fair to believers: none of them ever actually do. They want to, oh most assuredly. Every believer secretly understands that they should have a defensible reason for belief and they can all trot those "reasons" out. The key is: can those reasons convince others?

The fact that so few of those reasons can actually convince others is frightening to consider. It's best to act as if "evidence" for a belief is somehow "unnecessary".

But it never is. It's just hidden because the believer can't get others to hop on board their wagon.

I tell them they made a choice now walk the path you chose!

So failing to believe YOU is a choice that I will have to take responsibility for? That's a lot of hubris.

 

[Cypress]

Yes, people who aren't superstitious can become superstitious.

It takes faith to be an atheist too.

I also used to also think all Christians were superstitious fools. Until I decided to lay my preconceived biases at the doorstep and investigate with an open mind.

CS Lewis and the preeminent American geneticist Francis Collins wrote up powerful cases for a rational Christianity. And whether I agreed with them or not, these men were not making idiotic arguments.

The esteemedt paleontologist Steven Gould famously said about fifty percent of his scientific colleagues were religious, and he could not convince himself that half his colleagues in the science community were fools and rubes.

 

[gfm7175]

Without circular logic,

Religion requires faith, ZenMode... You should know all about that because of your belief that a god doesn't exist.

what evidence is there today to support the existence of the Christian god?

Life itself.
The current existence of billions of self-identified "believers".
The fact that many tens of millions of "believers" have died for their faith.
The fact that the Holy Bible is the most popular (best selling) book of all time.
People's accounts of their near-death experiences.
The fact that there is only one single planet in the observable universe (out of an uncountable number of planets) that has ideal conditions for hosting life.

 

[gfm7175]

What was the reason that is unique to Christianity?

Why does it need to be unique to Christianity?

 

[ZenMode]

It takes faith to be an atheist too.

Not really. When I look at the evidence for the Christian god, or the god of any other religion, and think "I just don't see a reason to believe in any of them based on the (lack of) evidence", that's not faith. That's reasoning

I also used to also think all Christians were superstitious fools. Until I decided to lay my preconceived biases at the doorstep and investigate with an open mind.

CS Lewis and the preeminent American geneticist Francis Collins wrote up powerful cases for a rational Christianity. And whether I agreed with them or not, these men were not making idiotic arguments.

The esteemedt paleontologist Steven Gould famously said about fifty percent of his scientific colleagues were religious, and he could not convince himself that half his colleagues in the science community were fools and rubes.

That really just proves how widespread religious superstition is, not that there's any additional evidence to believe in the gods of any religions.

 

[ZenMode]

Religion requires faith, ZenMode... You should know all about that because of your belief that a god doesn't exist.

A lack of belief in gods is based on a lack of evidence, not faith.

Life itself.

I'm confused on how that is evidence of a god, much less the specific God of Christianity.

The current existence of billions of self-identified "believers".

A lot of misguided people doesn't make something true.

The fact that many tens of millions of "believers" have died for their faith.

A lot of misguided people, who are now deceased, doesn't make something true.

The fact that the Holy Bible is the most popular (best selling) book of all time.

A lot of misguided people doesn't make something true.

People's accounts of their near-death experiences.

Yes, people die...come close to dying, etc. That's not evidence for gods.

The fact that there is only one single planet in the observable universe (out of an uncountable number of planets) that has ideal conditions for hosting life.

I'm confused on how that is evidence of a god, much less the specific God of Christianity. You are saying a god created an endless universe, with an uncountable number of stars/planets, in order to have a relationship with a single type of primate, of which he is awkwardly concerned with what the primate does while naked, is somehow actually evidence of your God's existence?

 

[ZenMode]

Why does it need to be unique to Christianity?

You don't want to believe in the wrong god, do you? Most religions have a creator deity, rules put forth by that deity via religious doctrine, a historical record of interaction with mankind, etc.

What makes your story more believable than any other religions'?

 

[Margot]

To be quite fair to believers: none of them ever actually do. They want to, oh most assuredly. Every believer secretly understands that they should have a defensible reason for belief and they can all trot those "reasons" out. The key is: can those reasons convince others?

The fact that so few of those reasons can actually convince others is frightening to consider. It's best to act as if "evidence" for a belief is somehow "unnecessary".

But it never is. It's just hidden because the believer can't get others to hop on board their wagon.



So failing to believe YOU is a choice that I will have to take responsibility for? That's a lot of hubris.

Like I said I don't play the evidence game ,atheist can walk the path they chose

 

[Margot]

To be quite fair to believers: none of them ever actually do. They want to, oh most assuredly. Every believer secretly understands that they should have a defensible reason for belief and they can all trot those "reasons" out. The key is: can those reasons convince others?

The fact that so few of those reasons can actually convince others is frightening to consider. It's best to act as if "evidence" for a belief is somehow "unnecessary".

But it never is. It's just hidden because the believer can't get others to hop on board their wagon.



So failing to believe YOU is a choice that I will have to take responsibility for? That's a lot of hubris.

I'm not asking anyone to believe what I believe! I say walk the path you chose!

 

[gfm7175]

A lack of belief in gods is based on a lack of evidence, not faith.

The presence of belief in no gods is based on faith (no different than the presence of belief in a god).

I'm confused on how that is evidence of a god, much less the specific God of Christianity.

Maybe the Christian God created life?

A lot of misguided people doesn't make something true.

... but it IS evidence that supports the veracity of Christianity.

A lot of misguided people, who are now deceased, doesn't make something true.

... but it IS evidence that supports the veracity of Christianity. Did all of those people die for something that they knew to be false?

A lot of misguided people doesn't make something true.

... but it IS evidence that supports the veracity of Christianity.

Yes, people die...come close to dying, etc. That's not evidence for gods.

... but NDE testimony IS evidence that supports the veracity of Christianity.

I'm confused on how that is evidence of a god, much less the specific God of Christianity.

Maybe the Christian God purposely created a specific home for humanity (Earth)?

You are saying a god created an endless universe, with an uncountable number of stars/planets, in order to have a relationship with a single type of primate [humanity],

FTFY. Yes.

of which he is awkwardly concerned with what the primate does while naked,

is somehow actually evidence of your God's existence?

Yes.

 

[gfm7175]

You don't want to believe in the wrong god, do you?

No, I don't.

Most religions have a creator deity, rules put forth by that deity via religious doctrine, a historical record of interaction with mankind, etc.

What makes your story more believable than any other religions'?

Jesus himself claimed to be "I AM", claimed that he and the Father "are one", and claimed/displayed power and authority that only God possesses (such as power over death). Many of his apostles were so strong in their conviction that they were willing to be (and WERE!) martyred for their testimony and belief in what they saw. People typically aren't willing to be martyred for what they know to be a lie.

 

[Ross Dolan]

My beliefs are based on evidence.

Your "beliefs" are not based on evidence...which is why you refer to them as "beliefs."

The beliefs of religious people are based on faith, because, again, if all writings about/memories of the Christian god were wiped from the earth, there would be nothing to revive the belief of the Christian god.

As are your "beliefs."

So?

You are as atheistic as I am as it relates to all of the gods that man has ever made up, except one. There is no more evidence for your God than there is for all those other gods you don't believe in.

That is merely atheistic bullshit.

I, for one, am not atheistic (whatever that means at any particular moment) at all. Nor would I be, because being atheistic is simply the mirror image of being theistic...and I would not be theistic.

Why not answer the questions I ask a few pages back?

 

[Ross Dolan]

Religion requires faith, ZenMode... You should know all about that because of your belief that a god doesn't exist.

Life itself.
The current existence of billions of self-identified "believers".
The fact that many tens of millions of "believers" have died for their faith.
The fact that the Holy Bible is the most popular (best selling) book of all time.
People's accounts of their near-death experiences.
The fact that there is only one single planet in the observable universe (out of an uncountable number of planets) that has ideal conditions for hosting life.

Religion really does not require faith.

Actually, all religion (or atheism) has to do is to call "belief" what it actually is on this issue...a blind guess about the unknown.

Then it all clears up. The atheists blindly guess one way...the theists blindly guess the other way.

That's all it takes.

 

[Cypress]

Not really. When I look at the evidence for the Christian god, or the god of any other religion, and think "I just don't see a reason to believe in any of them based on the (lack of) evidence", that's not faith. That's reasoning

Atheists are materialists, who believe matter and energy is all that exists - that matter and energy is fully explanatory of origin, and of all reality. They believe the universe blinked into existence by purely random inanimate reasons

That is a faith based ideology

That really just proves how widespread religious superstition is, not that there's any additional evidence to believe in the gods of any religions.

Now you're just trolling, how disappointing.
The rational basis for Christianity is based on the cosmological argument, the teleological argument, the moral argument, the historical argument.

If you are the type of person who can stand to read something from a point of view other than your own, I suggest The Abolition of Man, and Mere Christianity. Whether you agree with him or not, I maintain you will not find CS Lewis to be a fool or rube

 

[Ross Dolan]

Not really. When I look at the evidence for the Christian god, or the god of any other religion, and think "I just don't see a reason to believe in any of them based on the (lack of) evidence", that's not faith. That's reasoning

Yeah. But "believing" there are no gods is not reasoning...it is just blind guessing.

Do you do that? Blindly guess there are no gods.

Because, Zen...it sounds to me as though you do...and will then do what most atheists do when debating...deny that they believe "blindly guess" that way.

That really just proves how widespread religious superstition is, not that there's any additional evidence to believe in the gods of any religions.

Yup. I suspect I am correct about you on this.

C'mon. Engage with an agnostic perspective...rather than trying to beat up on theists.