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The Almighty
Tell us then, Mr. Logical fallacy...... WHO IS reputable in your opinion?
Define a 'Liberal' or a 'Conservative'
- Thread starter Billy the Great Khan
- Start date
Tell us then, Mr. Logical fallacy...... WHO IS reputable in your opinion?
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The Almighty
Are you suggesting that she came back as FOOD!!
That's heartless.
She MIGHT have been that steak you ate last week.... something to think about
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The Almighty
No more so than a gay marriage and family.
apple0154
MEOW
"From a scientific/biological aspect, sexual behaviors are about reproduction and survival of the species. As such, behaviors that do not contribute to reproduction, which is an essential aspect of species survival, are, by definition, aberrant behavior, and the causes of aberrant behavior are, by definition, disorders."
I suppose we could define eating the same way. Food is necessary for survival so social eating/drinking when not necessary is aberrant behavior, a disorder? Under the definition you offer inquiring if a guest would like a "spot of tea" would be considered aberrant behavior.
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The Almighty
Well, that would explain all the fat bastards in the US these days.....
icedancer2theend
Verified User
Yes, people like you who doubt they need help- In other words, the attitude of doubt is a hindrance to research, which in short order prevents someone from seeking help.
The point is if they want/need help to not be a part of the lifestyle-that help has been removed for the most part due to political activism and PC rhetoric.
Yes, it was a VERY SMALL group who changed the psychiatric community in the early 70's. Indeed it was only 32% of the total membership of the APA who voted, approved the change- 6500 members did not even vote-367 abstained. And again this all points to the fact that 40 years of medical research has been lost.
This is a good summary on how it came about- it was NOT a scientific-but political decision.
Homosexual Activists Intimidate American Psychiatric Association into Removing Homosexuality from List of Disorders
BY RYAN SORBA
“It was never a medical decision—and that’s why I think the action came so fast…It was a political move.”
“That’s how far we’ve come in ten years. Now we even have the American Psychiatric Association running scared.”
-Barbara Gittings, Same-gender sex activist
Let us, for a moment, rewind to the year1970. In this year, same-gender sex activists began a program of intimidation aimed at the American Psychiatric Association (APA). Activist Frank Kameny states the movement’s objective clearly, “I feel that the entire homophile movement…is going to stand or fall upon the question of whether or not homosexuality is a sickness, and upon our taking a firm stand on it…” (The Gay Crusaders, by Kay Tobin and Randy Wicker, p. 98)
In 1970, psychiatrists generally considered sexual desires toward members of one’s own gender to be disordered. Karoly Maria Kertbeny’s term, “homosexual” was the official descriptor for those inflicted by this mental-physical disassociative disorder. Psychiatry’s authoritative voice influenced public opinion, which at the time was negative toward same-gender sex. Of course, public sexual activity in parks and public restrooms contributed to societies negative views about the types of people that did such things, but “scientific opinion” was crucial in the public attitude.
Led by radicals like Frank Kameny, same-gender sex activists attacked many psychiatrists publicly, as Newsweek describes, “But even more than the government, it is the psychiatrists who have experienced the full rage of the homosexual activists. Over the past two years, gay-lib organizations have repeatedly disrupted medical meetings, and three months ago—in the movements most aggressive demonstration so far—a group of 30 militants broke into a meeting of the American Psychiatric Association in Washington, where they turned the staid proceedings into near chaos for twenty minutes. ‘We are here to denounce your authority to call us sick or mentally disordered,’ shouted the group’s leader, Dr. Franklin Kameny, while the 2,000 shocked psychiatrists looked on in disbelief. ‘For us, as homosexuals, your profession is the enemy incarnate. We demand that psychiatrists treat us as human beings, not as patients to be cured!’” (Newsweek, 8-23-71, p.47)
Ironically, at the very moment Franklin Kameny was claiming that same-gender sex was healthy, safe, and natural, a deadly virus was silently passing through communities of men all over the nation as a result of the promiscuous, unhealthy nature of the sex they were having. Only a decade later, thousands of men would be dead or dying, of AIDS.
On June 7, of the following year, 1971, Franklin Kameny wrote a letter to the Psychiatric News threatening the APA with not only more, but worse, disruptions. In this letter he states, “Our presence there was only the beginning of an increasingly intensive campaign by homosexuals to change the approach of psychiatry toward homosexuality or, failing that, to discredit psychiatry.” (The Gay Crusaders p. 130-131)
Same-gender sex activists continued to pressure the APA through 1973. A same-gender sex magazine, The Advocate, talks of “…what happened in 1973…referring to the widespread protests by the gay and lesbian community that led to the APA’s dropping homosexuality from the DSM.” (The Advocate, 12-28-93, p.40) As a result of the pressure, in the words of the prominent journalist and same-gender sex activists, Andrew Sullivan, in December of 1973 the APA, “…under intense political pressure…removed homosexuality from its official list of psychiatric disorders…” (Love Undetectable, book by Andrew Sullivan, 1998, p. 107) Under this “intense political pressure” the APA’s board of trustees finally caved in to the demands of same-gender sex activists. Another same-gender sex activist Mark Thompson writes, “Just before the first of the year, the American Psychiatric Association’s board of trustees declared we were no longer sick.” (The Long Road to Freedom, ed. by Mark Thompsan1994, p. 97)
After the vote by the American Psychiatric Associations Board of Trustees, some members of the APA, led by Dr. Charles Socarides called for a full vote by the APA’s 17,905 members. (The Long Road to Freedom, ed. by Mark Thompsan1994, p. 104)
On April 9, 1974, results of the vote were announced. Only 10,555 of the 17,905 APA members had voted in the election. The results were as follows,
Total APA members eligible to vote: 17,905
Number of APA members that actually voted: 10,555
Number of members that “Abstained”: 367
Number of “ No” votes-votes to keep “homosexuality” in the DSM as a mental disorder: 3,810
Number of “Yes” votes-votes to remove “homosexuality” from the DSM as a mental disorder: 5,854
It should be noted that the number of “Yes” (5,854) made up only 32.7 percent of the total membership of the APA. Only slightly less than one-third of the APA’s membership approved the change. It should be further noted that the “National Gay Task Force” was able to obtain APA members addresses and the “NGTF” (with-out identifying itself) and they sent creepy letters to all members urging them to vote to remove “homosexuality” from the DSM. Bruce Voeller, the head of the NGTF admits, “Our costly letter has perhaps made the difference.” (The Long Road to Freedom, ed. by Mark Thompsan1994, p. 105-106) Dishonesty and intimidation had won the day for the same-gender sex movement, and when activists publicly claim that this vote was a scientific decision; they hide three years of deceit and intimidation. In same-gender sex publications, however, activists are remarkably candid about the reality of the vote. For example, Kay Tobin Lahausen, co-author of The Gay Crusaders describes a variety of activism. “We did all sorts of protests…When the U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations came out of some meeting and got in his big black limousine, I remember going crazy, rocking and beating on the limousine…He had never been besieged by a bunch of homosexuals before. But he had said something that got us going.” (Making History: The Struggle for Gay and Lesbian Equal Rights, 1945-1990: an Oral History by Eric Marcus p.216-217) (–Author Marcus has worked as an associate producer for “CBS This Morning” and “Good Morning America.”)
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The Almighty
Ice.... I think you are way off base to claim that we have lost 40 years of research. There has been a lot of research into the 'cause' of homosexuality in the past 4 decades. Research into whether it is genetic, inborn, a result of environment etc.... countless studies into how it comes about.
icedancer2theend
Verified User
I think you miss the point- in medical schools across the country homosexuality is no longer considered a sexual disorder- This has translated itself into a lack of trained clinical therapists; a seriously flawed starting point for research; little funding; and an unreceptive public.
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The Almighty
That is because it is NOT a sexual disorder. A sexual disorder is something that can happen to anyone at anytime. Homosexual tendencies or lack thereof do not change. It is similar to being tall vs. short. It is not something that can be changed or 'cured'. It is simply how one develops. There have been studies showing the development of the hypothalamus is different in homo vs. heterosexuals. While there is still debate and research into this, if that is the case then it proves it is not a disorder.
W
WinterBorn
Guest
Whether I believe they need help or not has never stopped anyone from seeking help. While there may be less help available because of the decision by the APA to no longer list homosexuality as a disorder, there is still help available.
To try and blame those of us who do not force anyone to do anything (one way or the other) is simply bullshit. I (and people like me) have never encouraged them to do anything but be who they are. The idea that they are forced to be part of a homosexual lifestyle (with the 500+ partners your research claims) because I have not condemned homosexuality is pure nonsense.
icedancer2theend
Verified User
No, it's not just that less help is available, it is that less good help is available- and yes, it is directly linked to people who think like you have expressed yourself in this thread. Your attitude and people like you, do hold a portion of the blame-whether you have done so intentionally is not in question. The very fact that the argument coming from you has to be framed in the most extreme manner, is proof that you still misrepresent the argument. Homosexuality does not need to be "condemned"- it just needs to be understood in its actual status as a sexual deviance from the norm. Any medical research worth its salt needs to have an honest starting point.
W
WinterBorn
Guest
That it is a deviance from the norm is not a question. That it is a disorder is what has been discussed. That a third of the members of the APA voted to remove it from the list of sexual disorders shows me that it is not.
There are programs which claim to "cure" homosexuality, and yet they are not swamped with people wanting to be cured. In fact, I have read some articles from those who participated in the programs that "cure" homosexuality. It seems to not be much more than a push back into the closet.
I am fine with it being a deviance from the norm. I simply do not see a reason why those who deviate from the norm in this specific manner should not be allowed to marry. Others who deviate from the norm are certainly allowed to marry and gain all the benefits from that gov't sanctioned relationship.
USFREEDOM911
MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN
She MIGHT have been that steak you ate last week.... something to think about
Now you're being cruel, just for the sake of being cruel.
icedancer2theend
Verified User
You are wrong. In the same manner any deviance from sexual norms occurs in the species, so does homosexuality.
We know scientifically that sex really begins in the brain- That said, the studies you cite were also challenged as "flawed" because the control groups used were in question- Most studies that have been conducted have shown, at least on the issue of INAH3 levels, to be inconclusive... These and other studies do point us in the direction that there is an ab-oration from the norm. Sexual impulse is driven by the release in males, of dopamine and vasopressin. This is an area that I completely support...but remember that in and of themselves they point to an abnormality in the brain and medically, that means something.
I have not attempted to claim there is no medical reason- or that there is one- I have pointed to the fact that homosexuality is a deviance from the norm-and it is. That political activism, not science, has driven the issue has also been argued by me. I have further argued that this activism has adversely affected research and a persons ability to get the help, that they may want, to leave the lifestyle...
These are and should be the real starting points of any discussion dealing with homosexuality.
icedancer2theend
Verified User
Again, attempting to paint extremes does not an argument make. Anyone that hangs a shingle and claims to "cure" a mental disorder, is a place to avoid. Sexual impulse begins in the brain. My point has been that 40 years of research has been lost- where we would be at in that research, is unknowable- but it should not be. Homosexual activism, not science, has been the cause. More activism will only continue to hinder scientific research, not advance it.
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The Almighty
I am not wrong, you are changing your wording. It is not a DISORDER. Period. The case can be made that it is a deviance if you refer as you just did 'from the norm'. Stating that it is not 'normal' in the sense that it does not apply to the 'majority' is one thing. To call it a disorder is blatantly incorrect. It is NOT something that just happens or that can be changed any more than your height. It just can't. Psychiatrists CAN teach you to suppress your desires if that is what a person wishes, but they cannot eliminate the desire as that comes NATURALLY to the person.
Please link me to those who challenged the studies and found them to be flawed. I would be happy to read up on their views/findings.
Again, saying it deviates from the norm does not make it a disorder as you suggested. You have argued that activism has adversely affected research, yet you have not by any means given evidence that is the case.
W
WinterBorn
Guest
I disagree. The issue being discussed is whether or not homosexuals are allowed to marry.
Even if, and I am not conceding the point, homosexuality is a medically documented disorder, it would be the only medical disorder for which the person is penalized by not allowing them to marry the consenting adult with which they have a loving relationship. Schizophrenics are allowed to marry the person they are in a loving relationship with. People with all sorts of disorders are not forbidden from marrying the consenting adult they love.
Also, the fact that there is a medical or physiological difference in homosexuals does not really change the issue. In fact, I would say that it strengthens my argument. If there is an abnormality in the brain that occurs, virtually identically, in a portion of the population, they should not be penalized for it. If it were only about who they have sex with I would not be arguing this at all. But it is about who they love. This is not about wanting them to be free to screw whoever they want. This is about two people wanting to be able to have a committed relationship and gain the same rights and benefits as are afforded by the government, to everyone else.
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The Almighty
Now you're being cruel, just for the sake of being cruel.
yes, yes I am..... its what I do... being pure evil and all....
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The Almighty
well said
USFREEDOM911
MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN
In that case; I hope you come back, in your next life, as an impotent gay black man, who writes poetry.