Define a 'Liberal' or a 'Conservative'

[icedancer2theend]

I am not wrong, you are changing your wording. It is not a DISORDER. Period. The case can be made that it is a deviance if you refer as you just did 'from the norm'. Stating that it is not 'normal' in the sense that it does not apply to the 'majority' is one thing. To call it a disorder is blatantly incorrect. It is NOT something that just happens or that can be changed any more than your height. It just can't. Psychiatrists CAN teach you to suppress your desires if that is what a person wishes, but they cannot eliminate the desire as that comes NATURALLY to the person.

Please link me to those who challenged the studies and found them to be flawed. I would be happy to read up on their views/findings.

Again, saying it deviates from the norm does not make it a disorder as you suggested. You have argued that activism has adversely affected research, yet you have not by any means given evidence that is the case.

No, to call it a disorder merely informs. There is no difference, medically speaking, to call a deviance from the norm a disorder.

You have absolutely no proof that help is never attainable. Indeed, that has been my argument, that because political and not scientific research has driven the debate, we have hindered research.

Link to study you asked about.

 

[WinterBorn]

No, to call it a disorder merely informs. There is no difference, medically speaking, to call a deviance from the norm a disorder.

That is incorrect.

Being left-handed is a deviance from the norm, since it occurs in only about 10% of the population. However, lefthandedness is certainly not a disorder.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

No, to call it a disorder merely informs. There is no difference, medically speaking, to call a deviance from the norm a disorder.

You have absolutely no proof that help is never attainable. Indeed, that has been my argument, that because political and not scientific research has driven the debate, we have hindered research.

Link to study you asked about.

That is incorrect. You are misusing the term. It does NOTHING to 'inform'. The difference medically is that a disorder can happen to ANYONE at ANY TIME. No straight person is going to wake up tomorrow and turn gay nor will any gay person turn straight. It just doesn't happen. Period.

I never stated that help is unattainable. People who are gay that wish to suppress their natural feelings CAN get help for it. But there is no 'cure' any more than there is a cure for being 5'1".

You are also quite wrong to stated that the research has not been scientific, but rather political.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

That is incorrect.

Being left-handed is a deviance from the norm, since it occurs in only about 10% of the population. However, lefthandedness is certainly not a disorder.

Incorrect, being a lefty is certainly a mental disorder. Oh wait, you said lefthandedness.

 

[icedancer2theend]

That is incorrect.

Being left-handed is a deviance from the norm, since it occurs in only about 10% of the population. However, lefthandedness is certainly not a disorder.

I know you think you have a ahha moment, but since we are discussing sexual deviations and not physical deviations- Thank you however for acknowledging that I was correct in linking deviance to disorder.

Pedophilia is also a deviance and a disorder-and is more closely suited as an example to the discussion....unless you think we should treat all sexual deviations in the same manner we treat left handedness because they are so closely linked-you have made no point.

 

[icedancer2theend]

That is incorrect. You are misusing the term. It does NOTHING to 'inform'. The difference medically is that a disorder can happen to ANYONE at ANY TIME. No straight person is going to wake up tomorrow and turn gay nor will any gay person turn straight. It just doesn't happen. Period.

I never stated that help is unattainable. People who are gay that wish to suppress their natural feelings CAN get help for it. But there is no 'cure' any more than there is a cure for being 5'1".

You are also quite wrong to stated that the research has not been scientific, but rather political.

I am not incorrect. A pedophile does not wake up and go "I am a pedophile" either. Using unrelated analogies to sexual deviance is a poor way to make an argument.

Also, as to how homosexuality came to be removed as a sexual disorder from medical books, was a political, not scientifically, motivated decision.

 

[WinterBorn]

I know you think you have a ahha moment, but since we are discussing sexual deviations and not physical deviations- Thank you however for acknowledging that I was correct in linking deviance to disorder.

Pedophilia is also a deviance and a disorder-and is more closely suited as an example to the discussion....unless you think we should treat all sexual deviations in the same manner we treat left handedness because they are so closely linked-you have made no point.

When you posted that there is no difference, you said "there is no difference, medically speaking...". Now, is lefthandedness a deviation from the norm, medically speaking? With only around 10% being lefthanded, that would be a 'Yes'. Is lefthandedness a disorder? Unless you are going to claim that lefthandedness is a disorder, your claim that there is no difference, medically speaking, between a deviation from the norm and a disorder, is false.

Yes, pedophilia is a deviation from the norm and a disorder. That something can be both does not mean there is no difference between the two.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

I am not incorrect. A pedophile does not wake up and go "I am a pedophile" either. Using unrelated analogies to sexual deviance is a poor way to make an argument.

Also as to how homosexuality came to be removed as a sexual disorder form medical books was a political, not scientifically, motivated decision.

There is NO scientific evidence to suggest it should EVER have been listed as a disorder. None. It was originally listed as a disorder due to RELIGIOUS views. Not medical.

 

[icedancer2theend]

When you posted that there is no difference, you said "there is no difference, medically speaking...". Now, is lefthandedness a deviation from the norm, medically speaking? With only around 10% being lefthanded, that would be a 'Yes'. Is lefthandedness a disorder? Unless you are going to claim that lefthandedness is a disorder, your claim that there is no difference, medically speaking, between a deviation from the norm and a disorder, is false.

Yes, pedophilia is a deviation from the norm and a disorder. That something can be both does not mean there is no difference between the two.

That was not the point I made over your analogy at all. The point I made is that comparing left handedness to sexual deviations is not a good analogy. The point I made was that it is a poor analogy in this discussion about sexual deviations and that using pedophilia was more suited...unless you wish to imply that pedophilia should be treated in the same manner we treat left handedness.

 

[icedancer2theend]

There is NO scientific evidence to suggest it should EVER have been listed as a disorder. None. It was originally listed as a disorder due to RELIGIOUS views. Not medical.

It was treated as a sexual deviance, because it is one. I have never suggested any argument that deals with religion in this discussion. I linked to scientific studies-not religious ones. Dragging the argument off into those weeds is more comfortable for you, but I have not gone there.

 

[WinterBorn]

That was not the point I made over your analogy at all. The point I made is that comparing left handedness to sexual deviations is not a good analogy. The point I made was that it is a poor analogy in this discussion about sexual deviations and that using pedophilia was more suited...unless you wish to imply that pedophilia should be treated in the same manner we treat left handedness.

No, pedophilia is not a good analogy either. That disorder is harmful to the individual and to their victims. Homosexuality, in and of itself, is not harmful to anyone.


But if we move along from the semantics, can you give a logical reason why homosexuals should not be able to marry their consenting adult partners?

Or can you an explanation of any harm that will be done to traditional marriages, if we allow gays to marry?

 

[icedancer2theend]

No, pedophilia is not a good analogy either. That disorder is harmful to the individual and to their victims. Homosexuality, in and of itself, is not harmful to anyone.


But if we move along from the semantics, can you give a logical reason why homosexuals should not be able to marry their consenting adult partners?

Or can you an explanation of any harm that will be done to traditional marriages, if we allow gays to marry?

Again, pedophilia is related to homosexuality in its categorization of both a sexual deviance and to its actuality. It is also true that deviant forms of heterosexuality are linked to pedophilia-but I digress THEY are related forms of deviance, much more so, then left handedness for the sake of this discussion!


I know you want to drag me off into how you want this discussion to go- but I entered the discussion in order to address homosexuality as a sexual deviance. I also wished to address how political activism and not scientific research, have affected those persons who seek or want to seek help for their homosexuality. I have said that I am not supportive of legislating homosexuality, because it will further serve to stifle research as society is then legally directed to accept homosexuality as normal. This is also evidenced by how people such as yourself argue the issue and wish to label anyone who disagree, as hateful or phobic, in order to silence alternative thinking.

 

[WinterBorn]

Again, pedophilia is related to homosexuality in its categorization of both a sexual deviance and to its actuality. It is also true that deviant forms of heterosexuality are linked to pedophilia-but I digress THEY are related forms of deviance, much more so, then left handedness for the sake of this discussion!

I did not use lefthandedness because it is related to sexuality, but rather to show that the terms "deviation" and "disorder" do not mean the same thing.

I know you want to drag me off into how you want this discussion to go- but I entered the discussion in order to address homosexuality as a sexual deviance. I also wished to address how political activism and not scientific research, have affected those persons who seek or want to seek help for their homosexuality. I have said that I am not supportive of legislating homosexuality, because it will further serve to stifle research as society is then legally directed to accept homosexuality as normal. This is also evidenced by how people such as yourself argue the issue and wish to label anyone who disagree, as hateful or phobic, in order to silence alternative thinking.

I did not wish to drag you anywhere except back to the topic being discussed in the thread.

Odd that you seem to berate me for wanting to drag the conversation where I wanted it to go, and yet you only wish to discuss a very limited scope of a side branch of the actual topic being discussed (thereby steering the conversation into the very narrow region you wish to discuss).

Also, if you are going to label people, as you just did, please make sure the labels are accurate. YOur comment "This is also evidenced by how people such as yourself argue the issue and wish to label anyone who disagree, as hateful or phobic, in order to silence alternative thinking" might have been better served if you had read my posts and seen that I do not, as a rule, label everyone who disagrees with me.

 

[icedancer2theend]

I did not use lefthandedness because it is related to sexuality, but rather to show that the terms "deviation" and "disorder" do not mean the same thing.

Odd that you seem to berate me for wanting to steer the conversation, and yet you only wish to discuss a very limited scope of a side branch of the actual topic being discussed (thereby steering the conversation into the very narrow region you wish to discuss).

Also, if you are going to label people, as you just did, please make sure the labels are accurate. YOur comment "This is also evidenced by how people such as yourself argue the issue and wish to label anyone who disagree, as hateful or phobic, in order to silence alternative thinking" might have been better served if you had read my posts and seen that I do not, as a rule, label everyone who disagrees with me.

No, you said that deviation and disorder were not related using an analogy of left handedness as your example-my point was to show that using left handedness as an example, was not a good analogy.

Why is it you want to take the discussion off into an entirely different direction then the one being discussed? I have stated twice why I am against legislating homosexuality- Gay marriage would fall under legislating homosexuality.

I have read enough of your posts on this subject, in a 3 year period, as so to include you in that statement-it was not a label it was a description of how you, and people like you, argue the issue.

 

[WinterBorn]

No, you said that deviation and disorder were not related using an analogy of left handedness as your example-my point was to show that using left handedness as an example, was not a good analogy.

I most certainly did not say that deviation and disorder were not related.

You stated "There is no difference, medically speaking, to call a deviance from the norm a disorder.". I quoted that and stated "That is incorrect. Being left-handed is a deviance from the norm, since it occurs in only about 10% of the population. However, lefthandedness is certainly not a disorder."

I was disputing your claim that a deviance and a disorder are the same.

Why is it you want to take the discussion off into an entirely different direction then the one being discussed? I have stated twice why I am against legislating homosexuality- Gay marriage would fall under legislating homosexuality.

This discussion is an offshoot of the discussion concerning gay marriage. Unless I am misreading your posts, you want to avoid "legislating homosexuality" until enough research is done. I disagree with having gays wait until enough research (whatever that may be) is done. Since my stance is that this is more about long-term, loving relationships than about sex, spending decades determining whether or not it is a disorder, a deviance, or simply a variation, is irrelevant.

I have read enough of your posts on this subject, in a 3 year period, as so to include you in that statement-it was not a label it was a description of how you, and people like you, argue the issue.

Yes, there have been instances where I have made derogatory remarks towards those debating this issue with me. But that is neither typical of me nor does it include everyone who debates the issue with me. If someone, during the course of the debate, using derogatory slang to describe gays or misrepresents them in grossly exaggerated terms, I will call them on their obvious and stated hatred. I am not doing this to everyone who disagrees with me simply because they disagree with me, as you stated. I am far more civil in my side than those who have argued against me have been.

 

[icedancer2theend]

I most certainly did not say that deviation and disorder were not related.

You stated "There is no difference, medically speaking, to call a deviance from the norm a disorder.". I quoted that and stated "That is incorrect. Being left-handed is a deviance from the norm, since it occurs in only about 10% of the population. However, lefthandedness is certainly not a disorder."

I was disputing your claim that a deviance and a disorder are the same.




This discussion is an offshoot of the discussion concerning gay marriage. Unless I am misreading your posts, you want to avoid "legislating homosexuality" until enough research is done. I disagree with having gays wait until enough research (whatever that may be) is done. Since my stance is that this is more about long-term, loving relationships than about sex, spending decades determining whether or not it is a disorder, a deviance, or simply a variation, is irrelevant.

Yes, there have been instances where I have made derogatory remarks towards those debating this issue with me. But that is neither typical of me nor does it include everyone who debates the issue with me. If someone, during the course of the debate, using derogatory slang to describe gays or misrepresents them in grossly exaggerated terms, I will call them on their obvious and stated hatred. I am not doing this to everyone who disagrees with me simply because they disagree with me, as you stated. I am far more civil in my side than those who have argued against me have been.

Ummm...you are splitting a ridiculous hair! The point you were making was an attempt to say a deviance and a disorder were not connected using an off topic and therefore, frankly, absurd deviance. What you were saying in essence was, they are not connected. THAT is the point you were attempting with the analogy of left handedness (btw they are two words not one) wasn't it? My response was to show that your analogy was a misfit for the discussion at hand.

I did not enter into this discussion in any way on the issue of gay marriage. Threads often take off shoots. If you did not want to discuss the issues I raised you were not obligated to respond to my posts.

In our discussion you attempted to stifle it by using extremes... It amounts to the same end result if I were to take the bait and react, instead of pointing it out, as I have done when you did it. I know that you are usually civil. One can remain civil on the surface and still attempt to derail a discussion by using extremes and poor analogies. That happens when someone holds an intractable view/position and is not necessarily interested in hearing a new perspective/view.

 

[poet]

I know you think you have a ahha moment, but since we are discussing sexual deviations and not physical deviations- Thank you however for acknowledging that I was correct in linking deviance to disorder.

Pedophilia is also a deviance and a disorder-and is more closely suited as an example to the discussion....unless you think we should treat all sexual deviations in the same manner we treat left handedness because they are so closely linked-you have made no point.

Typical right wing bigoted tactic...to attempt to link pedophilia, which a crime, a travesty against children, and socially unacceptable to homosexuality, which is most quarters, if not social acceptable, tolerated or ignored.

 

[poet]

It was treated as a sexual deviance, because it is one. I have never suggested any argument that deals with religion in this discussion. I linked to scientific studies-not religious ones. Dragging the argument off into those weeds is more comfortable for you, but I have not gone there.

In your reality, and those of the bigoted and homophobic.

 

[WinterBorn]

Ummm...you are splitting a ridiculous hair! The point you were making was an attempt to say a deviance and a disorder were not connected using an off topic and therefore, frankly, absurd deviance. What you were saying in essence was, they are not connected. THAT is the point you were attempting with the analogy of left handedness (btw they are two words not one) wasn't it? My response was to show that your analogy was a misfit for the discussion at hand.

I did not enter into this discussion in any way on the issue of gay marriage. Threads often take off shoots. If you did not want to discuss the issues I raised you were not obligated to respond to my posts.

In our discussion you attempted to stifle it by using extremes... It amounts to the same end result if I were to take the bait and react, instead of pointing it out, as I have done when you did it. I know that you are usually civil. One can remain civil on the surface and still attempt to derail a discussion by using extremes and poor analogies. That happens when someone holds an intractable view/position and is not necessarily interested in hearing a new perspective/view.

Ummmm.....no I am not splitting anything. I quoted your post that claimed a deviation and a disorder are the same, I said that was incorrect and used an analogy to show it was incorrect. Whether it is related to sexuality is irrelevant. It was a clear example that a disorder and a deviation are not, medically speaking, the same thing.

I discussed the issues you raised, and then tried to get it back on the topic of gay marriage. Again, its odd that you seem to disparage my wanting to discuss a singluar topic while you do the same thing.

And which poster in this thread would you say do not have intractable views or positions?

 

[icedancer2theend]

Ummmm.....no I am not splitting anything. I quoted your post that claimed a deviation and a disorder are the same, I said that was incorrect and used an analogy to show it was incorrect. Whether it is related to sexuality is irrelevant. It was a clear example that a disorder and a deviation are not, medically speaking, the same thing.

I discussed the issues you raised, and then tried to get it back on the topic of gay marriage. Again, its odd that you seem to disparage my wanting to discuss a singluar topic while you do the same thing.

And which poster in this thread would you say do not have intractable views or positions?

Ummmm yes you are. The example you provided was poor on its face for the reasons I have already addressed. It is not irrelevant, to point out, that your analogy was lacking in association to the discussion about sexual deviations. As I noted, pedophilia, is a deviation and a disorder- a much more appropriate analogy and one you wished to ignore.

Yes, you did enter into the discussion with me, based on the issue I raised. I did not disparage your wanting to change up the discussion I wished to have. I pointed out, that I did not intend to have the discussion I was addressing, turned into the discussion you wished to have- my prerogative...again I NEVER asked you to have any discussion-YOU chose to enter into the one I raised.

I do not know- but I do know how someone behaves when they have them.