Second degree murder

[Cancel 2016.11]

SF thinks racial profiling is OK. It's tremendously stupid, but he really believes in it.

My question is where the "fact" that the recent rise in crime was attributable to young black men come from?

Well, that started out as one of their famous "what ifs" and then quickly became established fact. I didn't ask for evidence only because I knew SF pulled it out of his ass, and it doesn't really impact my opinion of profiling. But, you're right. It should be produced.

 

[Onceler]

re-read what I wrote in response to you. I took you to task for suggesting that when he said 'these guys' he meant 'these black guys'. I stated clearly that there was likely a degree of profiling unconsciously done given the recent crime stats. But your implication was that it was more. That he was racist. That is what I took to you to task for.

I said he was profiling. I'm glad you agree w/ me.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

OJ is not a good comparison. The DA in L.A. screwed that case up. He moved the trial to downtown Los Angeles where lots of people in the jury pool came from the rampart precinct where not long after OJ was acquitted several cops were brought up on charges resulting from framing criminal defendants. Had the OJ case stayed in Brentwood, he would have been tried by a jury of his peers and convicted of murder.

You're dead on right there. Bad comparison. I watched a good part of the OJ Trial as I was working in a home office situation at the time and my environmental laboratory background is very similiar to a forensic laboratory background and it was plain obvious to me that the what created reasonable doubt in his case was the way the invistigators and the coronors office grossly fucked up the handling of the forensic evidence. All they really had on OJ was a motive and the forensic evidence. Had that been managed correctly it could have been enough to convict him. With out the forensic evidence there was reasonable doubt you could drive a truck through. I've heard the OJ Jurors get a lot of flack over the years but they actually got it right.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

SF thinks racial profiling is OK. It's tremendously stupid, but he really believes in it.

My question is where the "fact" that the recent rise in crime was attributable to young black men come from?

If the description of a criminal was 'white male, 30's, bald, avg height/weight' would you go around checking out black guys? No, you would be looking for a WHITE guy.

What is tremendously stupid is not profiling based on what you know. Given that the black neighbor is the one that stated the recent uptick in crime was due to young black men, I am fairly confident that he is not a racist. Of course Dung will probably come back with 'he is an Uncle Tom' or some such nonsense.

Had this been during the day, it would make no sense to be suspicious of young black men walking around in hoodies in the rain.

 

[christiefan915]

I think that in the interest of fairness we all need to remember that Trayvon didn't get a fair trial. This in no way means Zimmerman shouldn't get one. He should. But let's not forget, while we are busy weeping and crying and cursing the liberals and their vast army of New Black Panthers that a 17 yo boy never got a trial, fair or otherwise. He is in the dirt, never to laugh, never to fall in love, never to drive with his windows down listening to his favorite song on a new spring day.

Another view:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentis...pr/11/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-justice

Exactly! It's killing me that this child lost his life and all RWs can do is whine that Zimmerman won't be getting a fair trial. It's all so unfair and one-sided.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

You may be right, but if the prosecutor offers a plea bargain, a good defense attorney may sense they don't have the chops to make the murder charge stick, and he may reject their offer and force them to prove their case against his client.

Yup, I agree. A defense attourny is only going to accept a plea if it's in their clients best interest. If there was no "Stand Your Ground" law in Florida I think there probably would be a plea deal. With it, I think Zimmerman walks.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

What is your point? That profiling is okay? It's not. Next...

You realize that every fucking case filed they profile the suspect based on race, age, height, weight etc... ???

You realize that it is necessary in order to catch those who are committing the crimes (barring catching them in the actual act)?

I understand you point that minorities get harassed all the time for being black/hispanic. There is a difference between harassment and profiling.

If the suspect is young black male, 20's, slight build, avg height, it would be fucking retarded to pull over someone the size of George Foreman or age of Spike Lee.

 

[cawacko]

I'm assuming (which my be a dumb thing to do) everything we are debating here will come out in a trial. Any guestimate on when this trial may start?

 

[Mott the Hoople]

I thought that maybe the prosecutor was going for a manslaughter plea...but I'm not sure. None of us are in the room. There are a lot of politics at play here. The NRA and A.L.E.C. do not want nationwide scrutiny of these stand your ground laws. This guy walking around free was a huge liability to them. A manslaughter plea could make it all go away. THat's what they want.

But what does the prosecutor want? I really have no idea. As for his not getting a fair trial - well that cuts both ways. Yeah, most have made up their minds, but a lot of white people have decided Zimmerman is innocent and some have even concluded that Martin was a "thug". Cause you know, he's black and all. I don't know if you have noticed this soc, but a lot of white men are terrified of black men. You should see some of the things I hear when I mention that I am going out in Harlem or something. I would love to go into details with them about why I don't automatically fear black males but do sometimes fear some white males. But I don't like to tell people my business so I just look at them like they are crazy. And statistically, white people commit crimes against white people and black people commit them against black people. I know you know this. I am just trying to say I guess, that I feel that there will be people on that jury who won't be able to give Zimmerman a fair trial because they go in convinced he's innocent and nothing is going to change their minds. I'm not saying the reverse won't be true as well, but all anyone is talking about is the reverse. Let's not forget the double edged sword. Is Zimmerman really the underdog here???

If he gets USF and BRavo on his jury, that man walks even if they have Trayvon on tape begging for his life and Zimmerman yelling "You're dead n*gger".

Just some perspective.

Naaa, 2nd degree murder charges are appropriate. 1st degree requires premeditation. 2nd degree requires either intent or a wreckless disregard for life. Voluntary manslaughter has to do with state of mind (heat of passion killing) and involuntary manslaughter requires gross negligence that results in loss of life. So 2nd Degree murder fits best here is it's obvious that Zimmerman did not premeditate this killing nor was it a heat of passion killing nor resulted from gross negligence. Zimmerman definately intended to confront Trayvon and he may have confronted him with the intent to harm him or (more likely) had a wreckless disregard for Trayvons life. 2nd Degree murder charge is definately the best fit here.

 

[Damocles]

Just wondering with all this whining about how the liberals won't let us profile, and how you have the right to follow anyone around at night you feel like following, we didn't forget we have a dead body here did we?

I still say this bullshit about being entitled to follow people around and kill them, and then claim "stand your ground" would all get solved if women started carrying and shooting men who followed them. They would have every right as I understand that extreme law, to turn around, face their stalker, and shoot them right in the face. There is zero doubt they can claim reasonable fear. Zero doubt.

I think this is what is needed.

Also, Grind for you particular you better get off your smug high horse, because I am telling you outright I have no problem killing you if you are following me at night. Is that a victim? No that's a bitch who isn't going to become your victim. Period.

The women in my house are armed. My sisters also. My girls learn to shoot, and when they are old enough they too will be armed.

 

[Bonestorm]

If the description of a criminal was 'white male, 30's, bald, avg height/weight' would you go around checking out black guys? No, you would be looking for a WHITE guy.

Frankly, I wouldn't go around looking for anyone.

What is tremendously stupid is not profiling based on what you know. Given that the black neighbor is the one that stated the recent uptick in crime was due to young black men, I am fairly confident that he is not a racist. Of course Dung will probably come back with 'he is an Uncle Tom' or some such nonsense.

What the neighbor said and what is factually true aren't necessarily the same thing. As I understand it, there were a number of break-ins in the area that were not solved. So no one really knows for a fact who is responsible for those crimes.

Had this been during the day, it would make no sense to be suspicious of young black men walking around in hoodies in the rain.

It was 7:15 at night, less than an hour after sunset. Not exactly a time of lots of criminal activity.


I think profiling is tremendously stupid, particularly on soft information such as the opinion of a neighbor about who is responsible for unsolved crimes. You disagree. I'm OK with that.

 

[Damocles]

Naaa, 2nd degree murder charges are appropriate. 1st degree requires premeditation. 2nd degree requires either intent or a wreckless disregard for life. Voluntary manslaughter has to do with state of mind (heat of passion killing) and involuntary manslaughter requires gross negligence that results in loss of life. So 2nd Degree murder fits best here is it's obvious that Zimmerman did not premeditate this killing nor was it a heat of passion killing nor resulted from gross negligence. Zimmerman definately intended to confront Trayvon and he may have confronted him with the intent to harm him or (more likely) had a wreckless disregard for Trayvons life. 2nd Degree murder charge is definately the best fit here.

They couldn't do 1st Degree because that is a capital crime and they would have had to get an indictment from a Grand Jury.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

Well, that started out as one of their famous "what ifs" and then quickly became established fact. I didn't ask for evidence only because I knew SF pulled it out of his ass, and it doesn't really impact my opinion of profiling. But, you're right. It should be produced.

No, I did not. In one of the earlier threads on this, I posted the article where the black neighbor stated that. I did make the assumption that he was (a) not a racist and (b) knew what he was talking about.

 

[SmarterthanYou]

Oh yeah, sue all four members of the new black panthers. Why I bet they are worth at least 50 bucks!

I'd throw sharpton and jackson in the mix also. maybe even NAACP if they supported anything.

 

[Onceler]

The women in my house are armed. My sisters also. My girls learn to shoot, and when they are old enough they too will be armed.

I believe in the idea of people being able to arm their homes, and have guns on their property.

To be perfectly honest, I am NEVER comfortable w/ the idea of regular citizens being able to carry weapons with them outside of their property. There are too many volatile situations - like this one - where a regular situation can get out of hand.

Cue STY in 3, 2, 1....

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Which sucks, you can't appeal if you take a deal.

Beats serving 20 years in jail. I know a guy from my home area. Killed his wife. He was offered a plea for voluntary mansluaghter. Would have served 10 to 15 years. He turned it down and went to trial and lost. Now he's doing life.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

Frankly, I wouldn't go around looking for anyone.

I am saying if you were neighborhood watch.

What the neighbor said and what is factually true aren't necessarily the same thing. As I understand it, there were a number of break-ins in the area that were not solved. So no one really knows for a fact who is responsible for those crimes.

Yes, but they live in the neighborhood. Knowing and being able to prove it are obviously two different things. So again, I am assuming he knows what he is talking about with regards to his own neighborhood. I am again assuming that he is not racist.

It was 7:15 at night, less than an hour after sunset. Not exactly a time of lots of criminal activity.

you are right, criminals don't come out until at least 9:30?

I think profiling is tremendously stupid, particularly on soft information such as the opinion of a neighbor about who is responsible for unsolved crimes. You disagree. I'm OK with that.

I am basing it on soft information of the neighbor. I know what happens in my neighborhood, I know who the likely suspects are... but I cannot prove it. I am assuming he knows his neighborhood too.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Nah, I was just talking about the system there. It sucks when you deal, because you can't appeal.

Basically I think he's overcharged purposefully to give more room on a deal. I hope he doesn't take one because the only way we'll get all the evidence is if he goes to trial. But I can certainly understand if he takes one. If I believed I would have no chance at a fair trial I may be convinced to take a deal.

I don't think he's over charged at all. I think Zimmerman DID have a wreckless disregard for Trayvon's life that resulted in his death. That's 2nd degree murder. Involuntary manslaughter is not a fit at all! What's the claim for that? Zimmerman accidently discharged his gun? Neither does voluntary mansluaghter. What's Zimmerman going to claim, he lost his head cause he can't stand the sight of black men in hoodies? Zimmerman has not been overcharged in the least. He may not be convicted but this is the exact charge he should be facing.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

They'd have a very difficult time proving that, but I too would like to see the evidence. Hence my hope he doesn't deal.

I'd say provoking a confrontation with someone then shooting them cause they bitch slap you certainly meets the criteria of wreckless indeference for human life. That will be up to the prosecution to prove, beyond reasonable doubt, and for a jury to decide.

 

[christiefan915]

What if they were all black guys? What if 90% of them were black guys? What if they have all of those prior calls on tape, have listened to them all, and in each case when he was asked what race the "suspect" was, he answered "he looks black"?

Let's wait and see.

Here's an article about crime in Sanford and race isn't even mentioned.

One of the flashpoints of the Martin – Zimmerman case is Zimmerman’s so-called profiling of young black strangers and his irrational reaction in interpreting Trayvon Martin as being up to no good. The question is whether or not Zimmerman’s was actually an irrational interpretation of a strange person walking through his neighborhood. Of course, it is impossible to determine the breakpoint at which rational interpretation becomes irrational. But the general sentiment in Sanford, Florida among citizens in the months leading up to Martin’s death seemed to be an awareness and fear of crime. A September 2011 article from the Sanford Herald highlights this:

Residents say there is a rising tide of crime in their neighborhoods, and they are blaming the homeless population for much of it.
Homelessness has been a mainstay on the streets of Sanford for decades, but the tattered economy has worsened the problem. At the last City Commission meeting, about 50 citizens turned out to voice their protest against the increased number of criminal incidents occurring every day, victimizing people and property.
“I live in the historic district and I have never seen it so bad,” said Linda Surdin, who is a leader in her Neighborhood Watch group.
She said residents have been harassed and attacked by the homeless and citizens are afraid, in their homes and in the community.

http://glpiggy.net/2012/04/04/sanfords-crime-wave/

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