Second degree murder

[Mott the Hoople]

Again, taken without the 40 or so other calls from him where they guys actually got away I may even agree with you. But after understanding how often he had called where the guy got away, and the likelihood they weren't all black dudes, it just doesn't seem realistic to assume that he meant "these black guys" like you say here.

To me it's obvious that you want it to be about race but it is less than obvious that it was about that.

If this was about race the charges would be Fedreal charges and not State charges.

 

[Damocles]

I don't think he's over charged at all. I think Zimmerman DID have a wreckless disregard for Trayvon's life that resulted in his death. That's 2nd degree murder. Involuntary manslaughter is not a fit at all! What's the claim for that? Zimmerman accidently discharged his gun? Neither does voluntary mansluaghter. What's Zimmerman going to claim, he lost his head cause he can't stand the sight of black men in hoodies? Zimmerman has not been overcharged in the least. He may not be convicted but this is the exact charge he should be facing.

In Florida, they have to prove he had a depraved mind, wreckless disregard is Third Degree. They have a different system of murder charges in that state.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

I'd say provoking a confrontation with someone then shooting them cause they bitch slap you certainly meets the criteria of wreckless indeference for human life. That will be up to the prosecution to prove, beyond reasonable doubt, and for a jury to decide.

You are assuming that Zimmerman is the one that provoked the confrontation.

 

[christiefan915]

Well, that started out as one of their famous "what ifs" and then quickly became established fact. I didn't ask for evidence only because I knew SF pulled it out of his ass, and it doesn't really impact my opinion of profiling. But, you're right. It should be produced.

I've been trying to find something to back it up and so far, the only thing I've found has to do with homelessness, not race.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

They couldn't do 1st Degree because that is a capital crime and they would have had to get an indictment from a Grand Jury.

1st degree murder charges requires premeditation. I think it's pretty obvious that Zimmerman did not premiditate this killing, thus 1st degree murder would not apply.

 

[Bonestorm]

I am saying if you were neighborhood watch.

I'm not engaging this hypothetical unless you can show me that there was a description of a criminal suspect provided to George Zimmerman that included the race, age, hair type, weight and height that matches Martin.

Yes, but they live in the neighborhood. Knowing and being able to prove it are obviously two different things. So again, I am assuming he knows what he is talking about with regards to his own neighborhood. I am again assuming that he is not racist.

And suspecting/assuming and knowing are also different things.

you are right, criminals don't come out until at least 9:30?

7:15 p.m. isn't exactly the idea time for breaking into homes and cars and it is a time that people in general are active. So like, it isn't safe to assume that any person walking around at 7:15 is up to no good.

I am basing it on soft information of the neighbor. I know what happens in my neighborhood, I know who the likely suspects are... but I cannot prove it. I am assuming he knows his neighborhood too.

Lots of assuming going on here, SF.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

In Florida, they have to prove he had a depraved mind, wreckless disregard is Third Degree. They have a different system of murder charges in that state.

Then a plea deal for third degree murder would be appropriate. Also, if Zimmerman intended to kill Trayvon (which is certainly depraved) but did not premeditate the killing, then that's second degree murder. It's a good fit. Let's see if the prosecution can make a case. Again, those definitions can be mooted by the "Stand Your Ground" Law. If so, Zimmerman would be a fool to accept a plea deal. He'd win at trail. All the defense would have to do is prove he met the criteria for Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law.

 

[Damocles]

1st degree murder charges requires premeditation. I think it's pretty obvious that Zimmerman did not premiditate this killing, thus 1st degree murder would not apply.

Regardless of that, we knew it would not be 1st Degree charges because they did not call a Grand Jury. One cannot face the death penalty unless he is indicted by a Grand Jury. It's that whole Constitution thing.

The Second Degree charges will be almost impossible to prove considering they must prove, per FL law, that he had a "depraved mind". Overcharging like this is usually done with somebody whom you believe you can force into a plea.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

You are assuming that Zimmerman is the one that provoked the confrontation.

That's hardly an assumption. There's clear undisputed evidence that he provoked a confrontation. There are only really two clear facts to this case. Zimmerman provoked a confrontation and he shot and killed Trayvon. Anyone who tries to rationalize that Zimmerman didn't provoke a confrontation is playing mental masturbation.

 

[Damocles]

Then a plea deal for third degree murder would be appropriate. Also, if Zimmerman intended to kill Trayvon (which is certainly depraved) but did not premeditate the killing, then that's second degree murder. It's a good fit. Let's see if the prosecution can make a case. Again, those definitions can be mooted by the "Stand Your Ground" Law. If so, Zimmerman would be a fool to accept a plea deal. He'd win at trail. All the defense would have to do is prove he met the criteria for Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law.

The Stand Your Ground law has a different trial type included in the law, the court would first have to decide if it can be applied here, then it will itself be decided by a Jury which if decided in his favor these charges would be dropped, if not this trial would then continue.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Regardless of that, we knew it would not be 1st Degree charges because they did not call a Grand Jury. One cannot face the death penalty unless he is indicted by a Grand Jury. It's that whole Constitution thing.

The Second Degree charges will be almost impossible to prove considering they must prove, per FL law, that he had a "depraved mind". Overcharging like this is usually done with somebody whom you believe you can force into a plea.

You're playing semantics Damo. By definition a person who intends to kill with out justification has a depraved mind. They only need to prove that Zimmerman intended to kill Trayvon. That also, will be difficult to prove.

 

[Damocles]

You're playing semantics Damo. By definition a person who intends to kill with out justification has a depraved mind. They only need to prove that Zimmerman intended to kill Trayvon. That also, will be difficult to prove.

No, it isn't "by definition" there is literally a separate charge for "indifference" as I pointed out earlier. Law is all about semantics, especially in these cases.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

The Stand Your Ground law has a different trial type included in the law, the court would first have to decide if it can be applied here, then it will itself be decided by a Jury which if decided in his favor these charges would be dropped, if not this trial would then continue.

Well it will be interesting to see if that is applied here and if so and the charges against Zimmerman are dismissed, based on Stand Your Ground, it will be interesting to see if this law is either repealed or revised. Personally I hope that doesn't happen (i.e. charges are dropped) as I feel that Zimmermans actions were at best wreckless and at worst intended and that he should face a trial by jury for 2nd/3rd degree murder.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

That's hardly an assumption. There's clear undisputed evidence that he provoked a confrontation. There are only really two clear facts to this case. Zimmerman provoked a confrontation and he shot and killed Trayvon. Anyone who tries to rationalize that Zimmerman didn't provoke a confrontation is playing mental masturbation.

No, it is an assumption. Zimmerman stated he was following Martin on foot while talking to 911. He stated that when they told him not to keep following that he was walking back to his car when Martin confronted him about being followed.

It is not rationalizing anything. It is one side of the events that has been conveyed. You are simply assuming that Zimmerman is lying. You are making an assumption of what happened. Based on what? That he followed him?

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

That's hardly an assumption. There's clear undisputed evidence that he provoked a confrontation. There are only really two clear facts to this case. Zimmerman provoked a confrontation and he shot and killed Trayvon. Anyone who tries to rationalize that Zimmerman didn't provoke a confrontation is playing mental masturbation.

That said, please provide your 'clear and undisputed' evidence that Zimmerman provoked the confrontation.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

No, it isn't "by definition" there is literally a separate charge for "indifference" as I pointed out earlier. Law is all about semantics, especially in these cases.

I didn't say "Indifference" I said "Intent" and by definition one who intends to kill is depraved. All the prosecution has to do to prove "depravity" is prove he intended to kill Trayvon with out justification. Of course the burdon of proof is the prosecution and they must do so beyond reasonable doubt.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

That said, please provide your 'clear and undisputed' evidence that Zimmerman provoked the confrontation.

The fact that he got out of his car and followed Trayvon.

 

[Minister of Truth]

Frankly, I wouldn't go around looking for anyone.

That's because you're a pussy.

 

[Damocles]

The fact that he got out of his car and followed Trayvon.

So, when he followed the advice (from his own words) and turned back to the car this means he was still provoking?

 

[USFREEDOM911]

I think that in the interest of fairness we all need to remember that Trayvon didn't get a fair trial. This in no way means Zimmerman shouldn't get one. He should. But let's not forget, while we are busy weeping and crying and cursing the liberals and their vast army of New Black Panthers that a 17 yo boy never got a trial, fair or otherwise. He is in the dirt, never to laugh, never to fall in love, never to drive with his windows down listening to his favorite song on a new spring day.

Another view:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentis...pr/11/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-justice

Never to get suspended from school again.
Never to get caught with a bag that has residue in it, again.
Never to attack another person from behind, again.
Never to try and take someones gun, again.
Never get to slam someone head against the ground, again.