0.0073

Yakuda said:
Why? Because it doesn't make sense to you?

Oh course we know why but some can't accept it. It was designed that way.
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I have about ninety posts on this board considering the possibility of a higher organizing principle underlying the cosmos.

It also might be that the Abrahamic God is a fiction, and the East Asian belief and description of the Tao is a better metaphor of creation and organization.

But whether or not any of that's true, it is still possible to attempt to grasp the physics of why the universe is organized and seemingly tuned.
 
Cypress said:
I have about ninety posts on this board considering the possibility of a higher organizing principle underlying the cosmos.

It also might be that the Abrahamic God is a fiction, and the East Asian belief and description of the Tao is a better metaphor of creation and organization.

But whether or not any of that's true, it is still possible to attempt to grasp the physics of why the universe is organized and seemingly tuned.
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I don't care.

All you have to do is prove it.

I agree the problem is the illogical leap some atheist make is that because they, "...grasp the physics of why the universe is organized and seemingly tuned.", that means there is no God or that "...the Abrahamic God is a fiction".
 
Cypress said:
Why do the constants of nature have the values that they do?

Over the last hundred years, we’ve measured the properties of protons and electrons in great detail. All of those calculations start with how strongly protons and electrons attract each other. The strength of that attraction can be summed up in one number: the fine structure constant. We can measure the fine structure constant to extremely high precision; it’s about 0.0073 (or 1/137).

But nothing in our physical theories explains why the fine structure constant has that particular value. It seems like an arbitrary dial that got set when our universe came into being.

But it turns out that 0.0073 is not just any number. Calculations have shown that if the force of attraction between protons and electrons were stronger or weaker by just a few percent, stars wouldn’t be able to form the complex atoms like carbon that make life possible. Change the fine structure constant by a little more and stars couldn’t exist at all.

Something set the fine structure constant for our universe to this arbitrary-seeming value, and it happens to be exactly the value that we need it to be for complex matter to exist. That seems a bit odd.

When a coincidence gets too , you start to look for an explanation. If your neighbor wins the lottery, you have a lucky neighbor. If your neighbor wins the lottery five times in a row, you start to get suspicious.

Mathematically, the perfectly chosen fine structure constant looks like life and complex matter won quite a few lotteries in a row.

There are a number of other examples of constants like this. Two that are particularly relevant to the early universe are the number of visible dimensions (which determines whether stable orbits are possible) and the density of dark energy (which determined when the universe started to accelerate)—both of which seem to have just the right values they need to have. Make either one a little different and the universe would have no solar systems in it.



- source credit: course guidebook, The Big Bang and the Early Universe, Gary Felder, professor of physics, Smith College
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If they were different we wouldn’t be here. If I play the lottery long enough I WILL win five times. Nothing more is going on here. I have the winning lottery ticket. No one else does. God didn’t intervene.
 
Concart said:
If they were different we wouldn’t be here. If I play the lottery long enough I WILL win five times. Nothing more is going on here. I have the winning lottery ticket. No one else does. God didn’t intervene.
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A lot of scientists are bothered by the mathmatical improbability that all these parameters and constants all lined up presicely on values that result in complex matter, organization, structure.

Others aren't bothered.

But giving an answer "that's just the way it is" or "we just lucked out" isn't scientifically or philosophically satisfying to me.

I think when you get a lot of coincidences all lining up, that seems suspicious to many scientists, and they want to look for underlying explanations.
 
Cypress said:
A lot of scientists are bothered by the mathmatical improbability that all these parameters and constants all lined up presicely on values that result in complex matter, organization, structure.

Others aren't bothered.

But giving an answer "that's just the way it is" or "we just lucked out" isn't scientifically or philosophically satisfying to me.

I think when you get a lot of coincidences all lining up, that seems suspicious to many scientists, and they want to look for underlying explanations.
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Very few scientists believe in fine tuning. Mostly a theological idea/
 
Cypress said:
A lot of scientists are bothered by the mathmatical improbability that all these parameters and constants all lined up presicely on values that result in complex matter, organization, structure.

Others aren't bothered.

But giving an answer "that's just the way it is" or "we just lucked out" isn't scientifically or philosophically satisfying to me.

I think when you get a lot of coincidences all lining up, that seems suspicious to many scientists, and they want to look for underlying explanations.
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The water in the puddle must find out why nature just amazingly created a hole that exactly fit it's shape! The water must know! There must be a "Puddle Organizing Principle" that mysteriously creates holes exactly as large as the puddles they contain. What are the odds?

You know there are a lot of RANDOM THINGS which happen in nature.
 
Concart said:
If they were different we wouldn’t be here. If I play the lottery long enough I WILL win five times. Nothing more is going on here. I have the winning lottery ticket. No one else does. God didn’t intervene.
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This is my general feeling, but I'm certain that Cypress will still demand to know why THIS UNIVERSE exists and not the infinite variety of other ones. That seems to be the philosophical "quest" here. But since we don't know how many times the universe came into existence or how many times it will continue to come into existence (the inflation-deflation cycle hypothesis) we are only able to perceive that universe in which we exist. We exist in the universe that we exist in solely because we can exist in this universe (not that we MUST exist, but that we can...presumably there are infinitely many possible universes in which all the constants are exactly as they are now but life never formed etc.)

I find this sort of philosophical ideation to be very close to navel gazing.
 
Oscillator said:
The water in the puddle must find out why nature just amazingly created a hole that exactly fit it's shape! The water must know! There must be a "Puddle Organizing Principle" that mysteriously creates holes exactly as large as the puddles they contain. What are the odds?

You know there are a lot of RANDOM THINGS which happen in nature.
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Already addressed this.

Now you're just repeating yourself, hoping it sounds better the second time.


Are you going to blow up in rage and fury at me again today?
 
Why does the Universe appear fine-tuned for life to exist?

by Don Lincoln, particle physicist
Fermi National Accelerator Lab, University of Chicago

The question of why the Universe is the way it is is an ancient one, and none of the answers we have come up with are satisfying

It is really quite amazing that you’re alive. I’m not talking about you specifically and how if your mom and dad hadn’t met, that you’d never have been born. I’m thinking much bigger, namely, about the fundamental laws of nature that govern the deepest and most basic behaviors of matter and energy. For reasons that we do not understand, among the many ways the Universe could be, it seems to be finely tuned in a way that makes it possible for life to exist


https://bigthik.com/hard-science/universe-fine-tuned-life-exist/
 
Oscillator said:
Nah, you are the dumb one in that you don't understand my point. You just like to find a number and oooh and aaaah over it so you can sound science-y.

If the constant were different you wouldn't know it.



Jeezopete you don't get the point do you???? Are you really that dumb? For someone how touts his amazing intellect and broad reading you sure don't come across as particularly sharp.

Damn, you are fuckin' dim.
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Why can’t you just say we exist because that is the constant and there is no need for an entity set it so we could exist



Actually try to communicate instead of looking for an idiotic ball swinging argument
 
evince said:
Why can’t you just say we exist because that is the constant and there is no need for an entity set it so we could exist



Actually try to communicate instead of looking for an idiotic ball swinging argument
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Evince, I honestly couldn't care less what you think about my post. Seriously. So save yourself the trouble and just fuck off.
 
evince said:
Dude

You are the rage machine here
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Again, your opinion is noted and I consider it "trash" so I'm just going to throw it away. I get it, you want to get Cypress' approval so you can stroke each other, but honestly, don't address it to me. I couldn't care less what you think about me or my posts.

Save yourself the trouble and just don't post it.
 
Sums up what I have been saying, but just more elegantly

Somehow, the Universe began with just the right mix of cosmic ingredients to make life possible. It sure doesn’t seem likely

by Ethan Siegal, PhD, astrophysicist

Fine Tuning Really Is A Problem In Physics

When the Universe gives us clues, we ignore them at our own peril.

When we’re faced with a puzzle like fine tuning, we have two options for how we proceed. The first is to state that this fine-tuning is simply a result of the initial conditions that are needed to give us the result we have today. But this is both an unappealing and an unenlightening path to take, because it assumes that there isn’t an underlying cause that gave rise to the effect we observe.

The alternative option is to assume that there was some mechanism that gave rise to the apparent fine-tuning we see today.

Fine-tuning doesn’t need to imply a fine-tuner, but rather that there was a physical mechanism underlying why something appears finely-tuned today. The effect may look like an unlikely coincidence, but this may not be the case if there’s a cause responsible for the effect we see.

In science, our goal is to describe everything we observe or measure in the Universe through natural, physical explanations alone. When we see what appears to be a cosmic coincidence, we owe it to ourselves to examine every possible physical cause of that coincidence, as one of them might lead to the next great breakthrough. That doesn’t mean you should credit (or blame) a particular theory or idea without further evidence, but the possible solutions we can theorize do tell us where it might be smart to look. Until a new idea succeeds on all three fronts, it’s only speculation. But that speculation is still incredibly valuable. If we don’t engage in it, we’ve already given up on discovering new fundamental truths about our reality.
 
BidenPresident said:
Fine tuning is theology.
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There is no better scientific or philosophical question than to ask how the universe came to be exactly the way that it is. It's lazy to sweep it under the rug, and claim it was all just an amazing random coincidence, without putting in the hard work to look for underlying physical causes.
 
Cypress said:
There is no better scientific or philosophical question than to ask how the universe came to be exactly the way that it is. It's lazy to sweep it under the rug, and claim it was all just an amazing random coincidence, without putting in the hard work to look for underlying physical causes.
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God did it.
 
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