30% of GOP Presidential Candidates do NOT believe in Evolution

Ok. Human life is not a religious concept. It's science.

Whether it is human can be decided by science. Whether it is alive can be decided by science.

But it doesn't follow that human life is a human being.

This is called non-sequiter. The conclusion doesn't follow from the premises.
 
Ok. Human life is not a religious concept. It's science.

Whether it is human can be decided by science. Whether it is alive can be decided by science.

But it doesn't follow that human life is a human being.

This is called non-sequiter. The conclusion doesn't follow from the premises.


No. In actuality, the "difference" between a human and a human being is a contrived and artificial distinction that's been created to justify baby killing.
 
No. In actuality, the "difference" between a human and a human being is a contrived and artificial distinction that's been created to justify baby killing.

I just demonstrated how something could be human, alive and yet not a human being.

What you meant to say was that you couldn't argue against that point, so you just declare it contrived and artificial.

Do you have an argument on anything?
 
No. In actuality, the "difference" between a human and a human being is a contrived and artificial distinction that's been created to justify baby killing.

I just demonstrated how something could be human, alive and yet not a human being.

What you meant to say was that you couldn't argue against that point, so you just declare it contrived and artificial.

Do you have an argument on anything?

Yes. There's no meaningful distinction between a human and a human being.
 
Yes. There's no meaningful distinction between a human and a human being.

Well done, you've managed to present your conclusion. Now support that with reasoning....

Explain why you believe that there is no meaningful distinction between a human and a human being.

As I mentioned before, my toenail is human, its alive, yet it isn't a human being. That demonstrates a meaningful distinction.

Now, to be successful in this argument, you should present an argument that demonstrates that there is no meaningful distinction, OR demonstrate how my argument is wrong.

That is DEMONSTRATE, not simply say it is....
 
Yes. There's no meaningful distinction between a human and a human being.

Well done, you've managed to present your conclusion. Now support that with reasoning....

Explain why you believe that there is no meaningful distinction between a human and a human being.

As I mentioned before, my toenail is human, its alive, yet it isn't a human being. That demonstrates a meaningful distinction.

Now, to be successful in this argument, you should present an argument that demonstrates that there is no meaningful distinction, OR demonstrate how my argument is wrong.

That is DEMONSTRATE, not simply say it is....

When you say a toenail is human, that's an adjectival usage.

A human (noun) is the complete organism.

Your human v. human being concept is an assinine distinction without an actual difference.
 
Last edited:
When you say a toenail is human, that's an adjectival usage.

A human (noun) is the complete organism.

Your human v. human being concept is an assinine distinction without an actual difference.
Correct. Human (adjective) is used to describe the parts. A human arm, for instance. The arm is the noun, it is not 'a' human.

Human as a noun describes an organism, not a piece of an organism.

One good way to figure out what the definition of the organism is, would be to take away parts and then ask, would it still be 'a' human?

If you remove my legs, the legs themselves are not 'a' human, the remaining trunk would be. My arms, the same. Now, let's remove the huge brain that all of us are blessed with, except a very few. Now would either part be 'a' human?

If not, what about microcephalics. Was my sister 'a' human? I'd surmise that she was, for all of her three years of life, a human. So, it wouldn't be just the mind that makes a human either, nor would it be solely cognitive thought on a higher order.

The use of "human" in the adjectival sense in such a context where one equates the adjective with the noun is usually used in the fallacy where a "cancer" in a human is the same as an entire organism of a fetus, usually used in the context of an abortion debate.
 
Ok, I accept that the toenail analogy was weak, but I still want to argue that there is a difference between human (adj), human (noun) and human being (noun).

You are right Damo, we are having an undeclared abortion debate. I usually avoid these as I have no great passion either way, it is merely a mental exercise to me, but lets do it anyway...

I'll ignore the utilitarian argument for now, and concentrate on the rights argument, of which whether or not a preborn (for want of a neutral term) is considered a human being is part.

I don't know your personal opinions but assume that, even if just as devil's advocate, you are willing to argue the pro-rights position?

The crux of the rights argument surmounts to be that as a human being, the preborn have the same rights to life as the 'postborn'.

To attack this, I could take a few approaches. Firstly I could attack the idea of rights itself as a false construct, one that doesn't exist innately, and that will and capability are all that matters. I won't however. This may be reality, but we overcome this and build moral standards for a good reason.

The second would be to use a contractual argument. I'm sure you are aware of what the contractual argument is, but I'll recap anyway...

Basically it states that all rights must have corresponding duties, that rights and duties act as a contract between society and the individual. To possess rights, one must be capable of being able to enact the corresponding duties. Thus, only individuals who are rationally capable of enacting those duties are eligible for those rights.

This might be a shocking thing to state, but remembering all debate must be taken discompassionately, we can also recognise this exists in current societies. The mentally ill, for example, who demonstrate themselves incapable of rationally enacting duties, have many of their rights removed. This, incidentally is the distinction I make between human and human being.

I will try to pre-empt some of your replies...

Reductio per absurdum - If the ability to rationally fulfill duties is what defines rights, then children have no rights, the mentally ill, the senile etc...

To counter this, I would simply state that this isn't an absurd consequence, that in reality, what caters for these is the duty of compassion. And it is here that the utilitarian argument comes in. I am aware of the precarious nature of utilitarianism, that it is a guarantee of nothing, but then even a contract is a guarantee of nothing, aside from bringing about fear of consequences.

Or simply you could sidestep the contractual argument, and argue that all life has value, that it is life that dictates rights. To which I would argue that value is dictated by the person doing the judging, and isn't absolute.
 
If you remove my legs, the legs themselves are not 'a' human, the remaining trunk would be. My arms, the same. Now, let's remove the huge brain that all of us are blessed with, except a very few. Now would either part be 'a' human?

Very good argument to bring up.

What makes the 'self'? What constitutes I.

The old fruit Descartes would say 'Cogito ergo Sum' and state that it is the thinking mind, the trascendental non-material essence of the human that constitutes I. In that case, you could only describe the 'mind' (soul, however you want to describe it) as being a human being, whilst the rest of the body, including the brain, are merely human meat.

Those of us who disbelieve Cartesian mind/body dualism and reject the transcendental, might point to the brain, the organ that thinks, as the self. But the brain IS merely an organ, as is the heart, the lungs etc, all with there own roles to perform. Surely this discrimination is merely arbitrary?

So maybe it is the totality that is the human being, all the organs,limbs etc are what constitute the human being. But then what if we lose a leg, does that make us less of a human.

What constitutes a human being is far more complicated than the simple black and whites presented on friday by AHZ, and it was this that I was failing so miserably to argue on friday. I had little time and was simply snapping answers, for which I apologise....
 
Last edited:
AHZ Warrior ? Yeah right about as much a debate warrior as my 7 yr old grandson is an indian warrior with his suction cup arrows :D
 
Except you think life is a religious concept. You should look into the science of biology. Fetuses are living human beings. And it's not religious zealotry to think so. It's cold hard science.

What is deemed to be a human being, with the rights etc of other human beings is a matter of philosophy, not science, of reason, not empiricism.

You are attempting to present a solidness to your argument that isn't there...

No. The difference you speak of is something entirely made up by people trying to justify baby murder.
 
So using AHZ and Damo's logic anything that is removed from a human but cannot live on it's own is not human ?
 
So using AHZ and Damo's logic anything that is removed from a human but cannot live on it's own is not human ?
Didn't say that. I said that 'a' human as a noun is an entire organism. Therefore anything removed from 'a' human that is in itself an entire human organism would be 'a' human regardless of ability to survive.
 
Didn't say that. I said that 'a' human as a noun is an entire organism. Therefore anything removed from 'a' human that is in itself an entire human organism would be 'a' human regardless of ability to survive.

Agreed, The entire human organism thing does open some issues though. When does a fetus become an entire human organism ?
 
Agreed, The entire human organism thing does open some issues though. When does a fetus become an entire human organism ?
Does a zyogote, given conditions that exist without a vacuum directed with human hands, have all it needs to develop as an organism? If it does, and we know it does, it is an entire organism in itself. That would be a human life. Does it possess all aspects, or characteristics, one would call human in order to make it a 'person'? That is what this conversation is all about.
 
Will clones have rights or be made as gernetically engineered slaves ?
If they were determined to be "slaves" it would not last long in the overall big picture. I doubt that they ever would be considered such though. It would be too easily shown that they would be a personality of their own as well as a different organism than the original.
 
Does a zyogote, given conditions that exist without a vacuum directed with human hands, have all it needs to develop as an organism? If it does, and we know it does, it is an entire organism in itself. That would be a human life. Does it possess all aspects, or characteristics, one would call human in order to make it a 'person'? That is what this conversation is all about.
Wait a minute here. To return to one of my favorite analogies, an acorn "has all it needs" to develop into an oak tree, but it is clearly not an oak tree. A chicken's egg is not a chicken, yet it is a self-contained system for producing a chicken. You have not demonstrated how the conclusion follows from the premise.

Unlike a chicken's egg, a human zygote cannot develop into a complete human being independently. It requires constant life support from a female human donor to develop. It is genetically complete but that's just one arbitrary point in the development of a new person.
 
Back
Top