ZenMode
Well-known member
#Passover
A brief history of Hell
- Thread starter Cypress
- Start date
#Passover
The belief that Hindus, Jews, Buddhists, unbaptized babies, agnostics are destined for eternal punishment seems like a primitive Medieval belief that has no place in the 21st century.
I don't buy that is proof of a premeditated homicidal God bent on carrying out acts of unjustified pure evil.
By the standards of the Bronze Age, Passover would have been seen as perfectly reasonable retributive justice. And if you and I had lived in the Bronze Age and didn't have our 21st value system, we would have seen retributive justice as perfectly reasonable too.
The Pharoh had enslaved the Israelites and murdered the first born sons of his Hebrew slaves because of a prophecy. Then, despite being given numerous chances to free Yahweh's people, despite plagues, floods, and droughts, the Pharoh still refused to free Yahweh's people.
Passover was a type of retributive justice, a type of pay back, and a last resort that would have made perfect sense in the Bronze Age, no matter how it seems to is now.
Yakuda
Verified User
First of all no religion I am a part of believes anyone is destined for eternal punishment let alone the anyone of the groups you mentioned. As Ive said before some reach conclusions through ignorance. Also besides the fact you're wrong here what century it is is about as relevant as bicycle to a fish.
ZenMode
Well-known member
If you're saying it would be acceptable by mankind's standards at the time....sure. Surely the all gracious, all loving father of mankind has higher standards than what is acceptable to animals who regularly killed their own children to help their crops grow.
Men of the Bronze Age wrote Exodus, and if we put ourselves in the shoes of the Israelite slaves of ancient Egypt, Yahweh does not come across as a homicidal maniac bent on unjustified murder. It comes across as perfectly justifiable, last resort retributive justice, given what Egypt had done to the Israelites and their baby sons.
So you believe atheists, agnostics, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, and Buddhist do not face eternal damnation and punishment for not conforming to Christian beliefs. I don't think that is an opinion shared by the vast majority of your rightwing Christian allies.
ZenMode
Well-known member
Are you saying that an all-powerful, all knowing perfect being is bending to the animalistic behaviors man of the time?
You'll have to read the Talmud and the Rabbinic scholarship to see how Judaism interprets the events of Exodus. I've never read or studied the Talmud.
To me the takeaway here is that in the 21st century, even secular society has adopted as the standard of human behavior the Christian ethical values of placing a premium on human life, on mercy, on universal love - even for one's adversaries and oppressers. Because in the Bronze Age, retributive justice, an eye for an eye, would have seemed perfectly fair and reasonable, particularly in an Exodus context about slaves and their cruel overlords.
ZenMode
Well-known member
To men of the time, any number of completely irrational and immoral behaviors seemed reasonable, but we are talking about the God of Abraham, not men of the time. So, either the God of Abraham is a homicidal maniac (drown the planet/Passover, cutting off your dick skin etc) with no true understanding of morality, or the men of the time were making shit up.
It's fine if you want to believe God is an evil homicidal maniac with a lust for murder. It seems really important for you to believe that, and that's okay.
I take historical view of religion.
I leave it to the Talmudic Rabbinic scholars to tell me how they interpret the events of Exodus.
My view is that religions evolve, just like science, art, economics, technology, culture evolve.
In the Abrahamic religious tradition, our understanding of God is supposed to improve through time, by the various ongoing revelation in the Torah, in the prophetic writings of the Nevi'im, in the New Testament, in the writings of the Church Fathers, and in the ecumenical councils and papal bulls.
ZenMode
Well-known member
I don't really think that man is a factor in assessing whether or not God is a homicidal maniac. An all knowing, all powerful being would not submit to the will of the creatures he created. God's actions exist independently of man. That would be like parents submitting to the moral views of children. "Sure, it's okay to punch your sister in the face when she makes you mad." His actions are clearly in line with those of a homicidal maniac. Man did not tell God to drown the world or kill all of the firstborn children. God made that decision on his own and is, by definition, a homicidal maniac.
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Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
You're forgetting who wrote that story, 'Mode.
“Our idea of God tells us more about ourselves than about Him.” ― Thomas Merton
ZenMode
Well-known member
The same people who wrote the entire Bible? God/Jesus didn’t write anything. In fact, the person often credited with spreading Christianity more never even met Jesus.
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Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
If you understand that "God/Jesus didn’t write anything", then why do you credit God with the stories instead of the writers?
Are you a militant atheist? Gay? Both? The people who both believe in God but hate the Bible are often in those categories.
ZenMode
Well-known member
Militant atheist? Why, because I reference a story from the Bible and make a logical conclusion based on it?
Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
No, because you attribute mankind's flawed perceptions to an all-powerful, all-knowing and all-merciful entity then judging said entity by that standard. It's a conflicted and contradictory position only taken by angry atheists....often people who have been persecuted by Christians of which middle-aged gays have been found to be.
Are you denying you're an atheist, 'Mode?
The flood mythology comes from the Mesopotamians.
That's because you have inherited, adopted, and accepted the moral standard of Jesus and the New Testament, in which the value of human life, mercy, and universal love are elevated as the ethical bar to aim for.
In the Bronze Age, the flood story and Passover would seem perfectly justifiable. The world had become sinful and corrupt, requiring a divine act to reintroduce righteousness in the world.
Freeing Yahweh's people from cruel bondage was perfectly understandable in the Bronze Age as an act of retributive Justice. The killing of Egyptian first born was a last resort, and was payback for Egyptian murder of Israelite first borns.
Religion evolves just like science and art. I think most Reform and Conservative Rabbinic Jews look at God and the Torah through a 21st century filter, not a Bronze Age filter.