A brief history of Hell

[Dutch Uncle]

How does the belief that your God is unknowable help you determine which of mans' stories about him are real or fake?

Still dodging why you hate God, eh, 'Mode? LOL

God is unknowable as proved by the fact mankind can't even comprehend our own universe. Our perceptions of the mysteries of the Universe can distort our views of them.

Science allows mankind to determine which stories are factual and which are not along with which perceptions are accurate or not.

Most cultures have origin stories. I don't see you hating the Native American beliefs or the Hindu beliefs. You seem to only hate the Christian God. The fact you refuse to address the issue is one reason why I suspect my initial theory is closer to the truth than you care to admit.

 

[Cypress]

Jesus and God are the same being according to Christians. The OT are writings about God and the NT are writings about the same God.

What is being claimed is that the homicidal maniac of the OT was actually behaving morally when he drowned the world, murdered all the first born in Egypt, commands man to kill his new wife if she's not a virgin on your wedding night, commands neighbors killing each other for working on Saturday, commands the killing of children for back-talk.

So we've established that you have a grudging admiration for the revelation of the New Testament, and for the life, ethics, and example set by Jesus.

I notice how the League of Militant Atheists almost never launches into tirades of complaints about the Jesus of the NT.

Once again, you are posing as a strict biblical literalist, which is both odd for an atheist, and is a minority view in world Christianity.

It's weird that you claim to be impartial and even handed about all religions, but your litany of complaints about the OT is strictly directed at Christians. You don't seem to have ever accosted Jewish neighbors or coworkers (people whose religion actually wrote the OT) to lodge your litany of complaints about the stories of Torah.

The stories, poems, and, literature of the Old Testament were largely compiled and written around the time of the Babylonian captivity, at least 700 years after the supposed events of Exodus. So obviously the stories in Torah are tales and folk stories passed down orally, and represent an older revelation of Yahweh, which most 21st century Reform Jews consider allegorical.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Sadly thats true and we are suffering the deleterious effects of it.

Yes as I said previously peoples brains have been fucked up by leftist indoctrination. Beyond that if a national vote was taken to reinstate slavery and it passed, that wouldn't make slavery a good thing.

As to the subject of hell, the topic of this thread, when people have more than a 3rd grade level of understanding they realize hell is a choice.

Again your hatred of your fellow man is what distances you from God and the path of Jesus, Yak.

Agreed Hell is a choice. The mystery is why you want to choose it.

 

[Cypress]

Sadly thats true and we are suffering the deleterious effects of it.

Yes as I said previously peoples brains have been fucked up by leftist indoctrination. Beyond that if a national vote was taken to reinstate slavery and it passed, that wouldn't make slavery a good thing.

As to the subject of hell, the topic of this thread, when people have more than a 3rd grade level of understanding they realize hell is a choice.

I don't think people are Zombies who are brainwashed by high school English teachers and College biology professors.

I think if you look at the history of modern western civilization, the trajectory has always been towards more fairness and more equality. That has nothing to do with programmable zombification.

 

[Yakuda]

I don't think people are Zombies who are brainwashed by high school English teachers and College biology professors.

I think if you look at the history of modern western civilization, the trajectory has always been towards more fairness and more equality. That has nothing to do with programmable zombification.

I think they are and i think the evidence bears me out.

And less on merit.

The problem is you rationalize destructive behaviors claiming people want it. I shouldn't have to point out the idiocy of that position should I? It's such a weak argument.

 

[ZenMode]

Still dodging why you hate God, eh, 'Mode? LOL

God is unknowable as proved by the fact mankind can't even comprehend our own universe. Our perceptions of the mysteries of the Universe can distort our views of them.

Science allows mankind to determine which stories are factual and which are not along with which perceptions are accurate or not.

Most cultures have origin stories. I don't see you hating the Native American beliefs or the Hindu beliefs. You seem to only hate the Christian God. The fact you refuse to address the issue is one reason why I suspect my initial theory is closer to the truth than you care to admit.

You continue to try to apply emotion where there is none.

I agree that science allows man to bring to light many falsities in the Bible. For example, the surface tension of water can't support a human's weight. Rigor mortis, and other changes that happen after death, make it impossible for a body to come back to life after 3 days. Do you believe these stories are false, also? What is it about the Noah story and Passover that make you believe they are not real?

 

[Cypress]

Still dodging why you hate God, eh, 'Mode? LOL

God is unknowable as proved by the fact mankind can't even comprehend our own universe. Our perceptions of the mysteries of the Universe can distort our views of them.

Science allows mankind to determine which stories are factual and which are not along with which perceptions are accurate or not.

Most cultures have origin stories. I don't see you hating the Native American beliefs or the Hindu beliefs. You seem to only hate the Christian God. The fact you refuse to address the issue is one reason why I suspect my initial theory is closer to the truth than you care to admit.

The stories of Moses and the Pentateuch were compiled, written, and edited by Hebrew priests, scribes, and poets largely during the Babylonian captivity in the 6th century BCE. That is basically almost a thousand years after the events of the stories of Moses in the Pentateuch.

Obviously, these stories were not written by God, not dictated by God, and not even recorded by people who actually lived at the time of Moses.

They seem to be stories adapted from much older oral tradition, and the story of a liberation from Egyptian bondage would have especially resonated with Hebrews who were being held captives of the Neo-Babylonian monarchs.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

You continue to try to apply emotion where there is none.

I agree that science allows man to bring to light many falsities in the Bible. For example, the surface tension of water can't support a human's weight.

Rigor mortis, and other changes that happen after death, make it impossible for a body to come back to life after 3 days.

Do you believe these stories are false, also? What is it about the Noah story and Passover that makes you believe they are not real?

You and I can agree to disagree on that point.

Correct about surface tension, however knowing where the rocks or sandbar are located helps overcome that problem.*

That's given the person was actually dead and not just in a coma. It was common in the 19th century for the rich to want both a window in their coffin and a string to a bell should they be interred alive.

I believe the perceptions don't match science. Ergo, either they are false stories or, as pointed out above, the perceptions were mistaken. Flood stories are common in many cultures yet you only bitch about the Christian one. LOL As for Passover, it's not uncommon for explanations of strange events to come after the event. One explanation I've read about is that Egyptian first born sons often slept on the first floor near the door as a guard while the rest of the family slept on the roof for comfort and security. If a seismic or other event produced a layer of gas such as CO2 or methane, it could kill those sleeping on the ground and not those on the roof.




*A rabbi, pastor, and priest are fishing from a boat on a lake. The priest tells the two he’s hungry, so he steps out of the boat and walks across the water to land, where he claims his snack.

Shortly thereafter the pastor decides he’s thirsty, so like the priest, steps out of the boat and walks across the water to land, getting a bottle of water.

The rabbi seeing this decides he could go for a snack and a drink, and tries to do the same as the pastor and priest. As soon as he exits the boat, he immediately plunges into the water.

On land, the pastor tells the priest “Maybe we should’ve told him where the rocks were?”

 

[Dutch Uncle]

The stories of Moses and the Pentateuch were compiled, written, and edited by Hebrew priests, scribes, and poets largely during the Babylonian captivity in the 6th century BCE. That is basically almost a thousand years after the events of the stories of Moses in the Pentateuch.

Obviously, these stories were not written by God, not dictated by God, and not even recorded by people who actually lived at the time of Moses.

They seem to be stories adapted from much older oral tradition, and the story of a liberation from Egyptian bondage would have especially resonated with Hebrews who were being held captives of the Neo-Babylonian monarchs.

Agreed on the timeline and circumstances. What still piques my curiosity is the cause of 'Mode's hatred for Christians and their God.

 

[ZenMode]

You and I can agree to disagree on that point.

Correct about surface tension, however knowing where the rocks or sandbar are located helps overcome that problem.*

That's given the person was actually dead and not just in a coma. It was common in the 19th century for the rich to want both a window in their coffin and a string to a bell should they be interred alive.

I believe the perceptions don't match science. Ergo, either they are false stories or, as pointed out above, the perceptions were mistaken. Flood stories are common in many cultures yet you only bitch about the Christian one. LOL As for Passover, it's not uncommon for explanations of strange events to come after the event. One explanation I've read about is that Egyptian first born sons often slept on the first floor near the door as a guard while the rest of the family slept on the roof for comfort and security. If a seismic or other event produced a layer of gas such as CO2 or methane, it could kill those sleeping on the ground and not those on the roof.




*A rabbi, pastor, and priest are fishing from a boat on a lake. The priest tells the two he’s hungry, so he steps out of the boat and walks across the water to land, where he claims his snack.

Shortly thereafter the pastor decides he’s thirsty, so like the priest, steps out of the boat and walks across the water to land, getting a bottle of water.

The rabbi seeing this decides he could go for a snack and a drink, and tries to do the same as the pastor and priest. As soon as he exits the boat, he immediately plunges into the water.

On land, the pastor tells the priest “Maybe we should’ve told him where the rocks were?”

So, thus far, these are the things that some modern Christians have explained away or have allowed to be explained away:

- God didn't drown the earth
- There was no ark or a guy collecting animals
- Jesus/God didn't come back from the dead
- God didn't kill all the first born in Egypt
- God/Jesus didn't walk on water

However, we both know that many Christians believe all these things actually happened. In fact, the NT says that Christianity is meaningless without the resurrection.

I guess the better question is what claimed acts of God do you believe? Do you believe he orchestrated Sodom and Gomorrah? Do you believe that he advocated killing people who work on Saturday or kids who talk back? Was the virgin birth real of is that, as many believe, just an error in translation and it was just a "young" girl, not a virgin?

In general, of the things attributed to the Christian God/, what do you believe is accurate?

 

[Cypress]

I think they are and i think the evidence bears me out.

And less on merit.

The problem is you rationalize destructive behaviors claiming people want it. I shouldn't have to point out the idiocy of that position should I? It's such a weak argument.

I'm sure allowing women to vote was once viewed as a destructive to the welfare of the United States.

For the last 300 years, the trend in western civilization has been towards more democracy, more fairness, more equality for all citizens.

It's only on Fox that the theory of blaming the historical trajectory of increasing liberalism is all the fault of college professors has any traction.

 

[Yakuda]

I'm sure allowing women to vote was once viewed as a destructive to the welfare of the United States.

For the last 300 years, the trend in western civilization has been towards more democracy, more fairness, more equality for all citizens.

It's only on Fox that the theory of blaming the historical trajectory of increasing liberalism is all the fault of college professors has any traction.

Show where it's been good for America. It's been good for women but that'm wasn't the question. Make a case don't just assert shit.

And less on merit. Repeat it all day long if it makes you feel better but it doesnt change the facts.

I promise you you watch Fox more than I do. Liberalism isnt the problem leftism is.

Smart move on your part getting off the topic of the thread.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

So, thus far, these are the things that some modern Christians have explained away or have allowed to be explained away:

- God didn't drown the earth
- There was no ark or a guy collecting animals
- Jesus/God didn't come back from the dead
- God didn't kill all the first born in Egypt
- God/Jesus didn't walk on water

However, we both know that many Christians believe all these things actually happened. In fact, the NT says that Christianity is meaningless without the resurrection.

I guess the better question is what claimed acts of God do you believe? Do you believe he orchestrated Sodom and Gomorrah? Do you believe that he advocated killing people who work on Saturday or kids who talk back? Was the virgin birth real of is that, as many believe, just an error in translation and it was just a "young" girl, not a virgin?

In general, of the things attributed to the Christian God/, what do you believe is accurate?

No shit, 'Mode. I've never denied that Fundies believe things contrary to science. It still doesn't explain your hatred of the Fundies and their perception of both the Bible and God. Your avoidance of the subject leads me to believe my initial assessment is correct.

None. I'm more of a Deist, a believer in William Paley's Watchmaker God; the Universe was created and set into motion with specific laws and rules in place. Studying those laws and rules is divine work. For the Creator to interfere with those laws and rules would be cheating and, IMO, nonsensical. Since God is both honest and logical, it makes sense there'd be no interference with how things work out. For an eternal entity, even a googleplex of years would be, for lack of better phrasing, "a blink of an eye".

None. They are mankind's perceptions of events strange to them much the same way Vikings attributed thunder and lightning to Thor's wrath....another god you don't bitch about. Probably because your parents weren't Nordic fundies. LOL

 

[Cypress]

Agreed on the timeline and circumstances. What still piques my curiosity is the cause of 'Mode's hatred for Christians and their God.

Like I said, Militant Atheists love to troll Christians, fundamentalist Christians love to troll Muslims, and radical Islamicists love to troll Jews, in the most incendiary ways possible.

It has little to do with the value, if any, of those religions.

Reading the Hebrew Bible, the New Testament, the Dhammapada, the Bhagavad Gita as history is the wrong way of understanding what the message and moral worth of those literary works are.

We don't get our values, ethics, morals, sense of community by reading Issac Newton or Charles Darwin. Nor do our values simply pop into our minds randomly out of the blue. Values, purpose, and community have always come from religion, literature, poetry.

Anyone who is reading religious texts in the expectation that they are supposed to track with modern standards of historicity isn't even really trying to understand religion or the world of antiquity.

 

[ZenMode]

No shit, 'Mode. I've never denied that Fundies believe things contrary to science. It still doesn't explain your hatred of the Fundies and their perception of both the Bible and God. Your avoidance of the subject leads me to believe my initial assessment is correct.

I've said there is no emotion involved. The fact that you keep pushing that story doesn't mean I'm obligated to repeat myself.

None. I'm more of a Deist, a believer in William Paley's Watchmaker God; the Universe was created and set into motion with specific laws and rules in place. Studying those laws and rules is divine work. For the Creator to interfere with those laws and rules would be cheating and, IMO, nonsensical. Since God is both honest and logical, it makes sense there'd be no interference with how things work out. For an eternal entity, even a googleplex of years would be, for lack of better phrasing, "a blink of an eye".

None. They are mankind's perceptions of events strange to them much the same way Vikings attributed thunder and lightning to Thor's wrath....another god you don't bitch about. Probably because your parents weren't Nordic fundies. LOL

Ok, so you're not a Christian nor religious.

 

[ZenMode]

So we've established that you have a grudging admiration for the revelation of the New Testament, and for the life, ethics, and example set by Jesus.

Jesus beliefs were new at the time. They may have been new to Jews, who did/do take the OT literally, but philosophers and other thinkers had been "preaching" the same ideas long before he did.

I notice how the League of Militant Atheists almost never launches into tirades of complaints about the Jesus of the NT.

Religion aside, God/Jesus of the OT apparently had a dramatic change of heart about his violent, vengeful ways by the time the life of God/Jesus of the NT was documented. I'm not going to make things up to complain about.

Once again, you are posing as a strict biblical literalist, which is both odd for an atheist, and is a minority view in world Christianity.

How literally a Christian views the Bible varies a LOT from person to person. But, again, the whole point originally was that God actions in the OT were equal to those of a homicidal maniac.

It's weird that you claim to be impartial and even handed about all religions, but your litany of complaints about the OT is strictly directed at Christians. You don't seem to have ever accosted Jewish neighbors or coworkers (people whose religion actually wrote the OT) to lodge your litany of complaints about the stories of Torah.

The stories, poems, and, literature of the Old Testament were largely compiled and written around the time of the Babylonian captivity, at least 700 years after the supposed events of Exodus. So obviously the stories in Torah are tales and folk stories passed down orally, and represent an older revelation of Yahweh, which most 21st century Reform Jews consider allegorical.

If we're talking about the OT and NT, then that really only applies to Christians, right? The God of the Bible is universal to both Jews and Christians and it's that entity I'm talking about.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I've said there is no emotion involved. The fact that you keep pushing that story doesn't mean I'm obligated to repeat myself.

Ok, so you're not a Christian nor religious.

Disagreed. Your focus is as easy to see as your refusal to state your relationship with Christianity growing up. Why hide the truth?

It depends upon your definition of Christianity. No, I'm not a Fundie nor a Bible literalist. Agreed I'm not dogmatic AKA religious.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Like I said, Militant Atheists love to troll Christians, fundamentalist Christians love to troll Muslims, and radical Islamicists love to troll Jews, in the most incendiary ways possible.

It has little to do with the value, if any, of those religions.

Reading the Hebrew Bible, the New Testament, the Dhammapada, the Bhagavad Gita as history is the wrong way of understanding what the message and moral worth of those literary works are.

We don't get our values, ethics, morals, sense of community by reading Issac Newton or Charles Darwin. Nor do our values simply pop into our minds randomly out of the blue. Values, purpose, and community have always come from religion, literature, poetry.

Anyone who is reading religious texts in the expectation that they are supposed to track with modern standards of historicity isn't even really trying to understand religion or the world of antiquity.

Agreed Western morals are based upon the Abrahamic religions. A fact most militant atheists refuse to acknowledge in their war against Christians.

 

[ZenMode]

Disagreed. Your focus is as easy to see as your refusal to state your relationship with Christianity growing up. Why hide the truth?

It depends upon your definition of Christianity. No, I'm not a Fundie nor a Bible literalist. Agreed I'm not dogmatic AKA religious.

As I already said, the topic of the thread dictated the specific religion being discussed. Should I bring up Buddhism in a discussion about the Christian hell?

For that matter, should I bring up Judaism in a discussion about hell when Jews don't believe in hell?

 

[BidenPresident]

Anyone who disagrees with Cypress about anything has an irrational hatred of Christianity. It is that simple.