A letter from........Michael Moore...conservatives not allowed to read it!

by David Kopel Independence Institute

There are lots of good reasons why people have chosen to vote against (or for) the re-election of George Bush. And there are lots of good reasons why patriotic Americans have decided to oppose (or support) the war in Iraq. One thing that all the good reasons have in common is that they are based on facts. In a democracy, we should try to convince our fellow citizens with facts and logical reasoning. To manipulate people with frauds and propaganda is to attack democracy itself.

AGAIN...why are you so uninformed? Is it a deliberate effort on your part so you can support your propaganda without having to soul search?

FACTS you say? What if I told you this FACT: Bush, Cheney and that administration had invading Iraq a priority from the minute they arrived in Washington, 10 days after the inauguration, eight months before Sept. 11 they talked about it at the first National Security Council meeting? Would it make you question what are the facts as you know them?
 
AGAIN...why are you so uninformed? Is it a deliberate effort on your part so you can support your propaganda without having to soul search?

FACTS you say? What if I told you this FACT: Bush, Cheney and that administration had invading Iraq a priority from the minute they arrived in Washington, 10 days after the inauguration, eight months before Sept. 11 they talked about it at the first National Security Council meeting? Would it make you question what are the facts as you know them?

OH MY GAWD YOU DON'T SAY!!!! An incoming president looking at the reccomendations and intelligence gathered about threats from the outgoing president! In FACT much of what Bush knew about Saddam and his plans for invasion came from the Clinton WH!

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There was continuity from the Clinton to the Bush administration. While the Republicans led the first Gulf war, the Democrats led the wars in the Balkans leading to the military occupation of Bosnia-Herzegovina under the Dayton Accords in 1995 and the invasion of Kosovo in 1999. The Democrats and the Republicans joined hands in enforcing the "No Fly Zone" (1991-2003) over Iraq plus a twelve year program of economic sanctions and indiscriminate bombings.

It is worth mentioning, however, that US Central Command (USCENTCOM) had already, during the Clinton administration, formulated "in war theater plans" to invade Iraq and Iran. It was no secret that the stated objective of these 1995 war plans was oil.

The broad national security interests and objectives expressed in the President's National Security Strategy (NSS) and the Chairman's National Military Strategy (NMS) form the foundation of the United States Central Command's theater strategy. The NSS directs implementation of a strategy of dual containment of the rogue states of Iraq and Iran as long as those states pose a threat to U.S. interests, to other states in the region, and to their own citizens. Dual containment is designed to maintain the balance of power in the region without depending on either Iraq or Iran. USCENTCOM's theater strategy is interest-based and threat-focused. The purpose of U.S. engagement, as espoused in the NSS, is to protect the United States' vital interest in the region - uninterrupted, secure U.S./Allied access to Gulf oil. (USCENTCOM, http://www.milnet.com/milnet/pentagon/centcom/chap1/stratgic.htm#USPolicy )
 
OH MY GAWD YOU DON'T SAY!!!! An incoming president looking at the reccomendations and intelligence gathered about threats from the outgoing president! In FACT much of what Bush knew about Saddam and his plans for invasion came from the Clinton WH!

-----------------------------------------------------------

There was continuity from the Clinton to the Bush administration. While the Republicans led the first Gulf war, the Democrats led the wars in the Balkans leading to the military occupation of Bosnia-Herzegovina under the Dayton Accords in 1995 and the invasion of Kosovo in 1999. The Democrats and the Republicans joined hands in enforcing the "No Fly Zone" (1991-2003) over Iraq plus a twelve year program of economic sanctions and indiscriminate bombings.

It is worth mentioning, however, that US Central Command (USCENTCOM) had already, during the Clinton administration, formulated "in war theater plans" to invade Iraq and Iran. It was no secret that the stated objective of these 1995 war plans was oil.

The broad national security interests and objectives expressed in the President's National Security Strategy (NSS) and the Chairman's National Military Strategy (NMS) form the foundation of the United States Central Command's theater strategy. The NSS directs implementation of a strategy of dual containment of the rogue states of Iraq and Iran as long as those states pose a threat to U.S. interests, to other states in the region, and to their own citizens. Dual containment is designed to maintain the balance of power in the region without depending on either Iraq or Iran. USCENTCOM's theater strategy is interest-based and threat-focused. The purpose of U.S. engagement, as espoused in the NSS, is to protect the United States' vital interest in the region - uninterrupted, secure U.S./Allied access to Gulf oil. (USCENTCOM, http://www.milnet.com/milnet/pentagon/centcom/chap1/stratgic.htm#USPolicy )

Whoa there miss...before you get on your high horse, you have some difficult questions to answer...First off, you have a dead link. And when I c & P it , it only takes me to milnet.com's home page. So provide where you copy & pasted from.

Next...I am well aware of the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998. But in 2000 George W. Bush ran for president on a non-intervention foreign policy. No nation building. He criticized Gore (Clinton) for interventionism and nation building. THEN, he invades Iraq. WHY?

You posted: 'There are lots of good reasons why people have chosen to vote against (or for) the re-election of George Bush. And there are lots of good reasons why patriotic Americans have decided to oppose (or support) the war in Iraq'

Well YES, there there are lots of good reasons why patriotic Americans elect a president and there is no bigger reason than war and peace. If Bush had already decided to invade Iraq if he were elected in 2000, WHY didn't he tell the American people?...or did Bush lie right from the very start???
 
I just dont understand why ANYONE would be surprized that entities whos ONLY concern is more profit would stoop to such tactics.


Its a perfectly natural progression.
Yea and conservative and libertarian types would love to see our government run solely by these people. Wouldn't that be lovely?
 
Yea and conservative and libertarian types would love to see our government run solely by these people. Wouldn't that be lovely?

So did Mussolini.

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Teddy Roosevelt, a Republican, said that America would never be destroyed by a foreign power but he warned that our political institutions, our democratic institutions would be subverted by malefactors of great wealth who would erode them from within. Dwight Eisenhower, another republican in his most famous speech ever warned America against the domination by the military industrial complex.

Abraham Lincoln, the greatest Republican in our history, said during the height of the Civil War "I have the South in front of me and I have the bankers behind me. And for my country I fear the bankers more."

Franklin Roosevelt said during World War II that the domination of government by corporate power is "the essence of Fascism" and Benito Mussolini who had an insider’s view of that process said the same thing. Essentially he said that - he complained that Fascism should not be called Fascism. It should be called corporatism because it was the merger of state of corporate power.

And what we have to understand as Americans is that the domination of business by government is called Communism.

The domination of government by business is called Fascism.

And what our job is is to walk that narrow trail in between which is free market capitalism and democracy. And keep big government at bay with our right hand and corporate power at bay with our left.

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
 
Interesting, Bfgrn, "not allowed" are you afraid a conservative might answer or something or give a different solution than handing it to the government?

Or is this some sad form of "reverse psychology" where you say "not allowed" and think more will read Moore's letter therefore?
 
Interesting, Bfgrn, "not allowed" are you afraid a conservative might answer or something or give a different solution than handing it to the government?

Or is this some sad form of "reverse psychology" where you say "not allowed" and think more will read Moore's letter therefore?

Honestly Damo, it is a slam of conservatives. I don't expect a conservative to read it. When I say 'not allowed' it describes a self imposed ban. Most people who call themselves conservative today are so brainwashed and controlled by Fox 24/7 propaganda, Limbaugh and Beck they not only will not read anything by Michael Moore, they can not. In some folks it has reached the level where they fear somehow someone will know they read it and they'd be ostracized for it.
 
Honestly Damo, it is a slam of liberals. I don't expect a liberal to read it. When I say 'not allowed' it describes a self imposed ban. Most people who call themselves liberal today are so brainwashed and controlled by MSNBC 24/7 propaganda, maddow and the young turks, they not only will not read anything by glenn beck, they can not. In some folks it has reached the level where they fear somehow someone will know they read it and they'd be ostracized for it.

funny how that left/right idiocy parallel each other to a T
 
Whoa there miss...before you get on your high horse, you have some difficult questions to answer...First off, you have a dead link. And when I c & P it , it only takes me to milnet.com's home page. So provide where you copy & pasted from.

Next...I am well aware of the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998. But in 2000 George W. Bush ran for president on a non-intervention foreign policy. No nation building. He criticized Gore (Clinton) for interventionism and nation building. THEN, he invades Iraq. WHY?

You posted: 'There are lots of good reasons why people have chosen to vote against (or for) the re-election of George Bush. And there are lots of good reasons why patriotic Americans have decided to oppose (or support) the war in Iraq'

Well YES, there there are lots of good reasons why patriotic Americans elect a president and there is no bigger reason than war and peace. If Bush had already decided to invade Iraq if he were elected in 2000, WHY didn't he tell the American people?...or did Bush lie right from the very start???

I'll work on the link.

The fact of the matter is presdeints run on ideals and agendas and THEN they get elected and face the realities of office. This is why Obama has not ended either wars (the presence of more then 50 k troops in iraq) and the escalation of war in Afghanistan. He has increased both drone attacks on and renditions of, terror suspects (something he openly critisized Bush for) And he has left Gitmo open. Why? Because once in office he understood that he was not the president of his ideals, but of the nations realities. In the same way Bush took office and was faced with the Clinton admins realities of Iraq and Iran...and then 9/11. You will be certain to argue your own skewed interpretations...but those ARE the facts. Bush took office and it was ENTIRELY appropriate for him to be immediately concerned with and looking at what was deemed our most pressing international threats.
 
Honestly Damo, it is a slam of conservatives. I don't expect a conservative to read it. When I say 'not allowed' it describes a self imposed ban. Most people who call themselves conservative today are so brainwashed and controlled by Fox 24/7 propaganda, Limbaugh and Beck they not only will not read anything by Michael Moore, they can not. In some folks it has reached the level where they fear somehow someone will know they read it and they'd be ostracized for it.
I spend my time reading media matters as well as stuff like this, because it is important to see what the opposition is being told to believe. I find that most people who say things like this never have actually watched Beck, payed any attention other than what media matters feeds them to Rush, and scoff at all things that might be reported on FOX up to and including AP stories reported word for word the same as it was on MSNBC.

So, what about you? Do you care to listen to Beck on occasion to see what he may be saying to his supposed sheep? Personally I don't regularly listen to any of them, but then, for me, it would be like teaching my daughter math. I already know the answers. However, I do listen to Beck when somebody tells me he's saying something, I seek out the context and find out for myself if it really was what he said. Almost invariably, what is reported to sheeple on media matters or liberalsrusblogspot.lib is deliberately taken out of context and fed to an audience who would never deign to listen and find out that they were misled.

Those same people later come here, they try to tell me how to think, link to letters that suggest that because one cripplingly sucky bureaucracy did something, that we MUST hand over whatever they are doing to an even larger and more sucky bureaucracy and then tell me that I won't "read" something because they want to believe me ignorant.

Now, since you've tried to make it so personal in your attempt at your air of superiority, I recognize what batch you were made from. It's up to you if you want to break out of that mold and use information supplied by posters here to actually expand your mind rather than ignore them and cement yourself into preconceived ideas. Most never can break that mold, most never try, and only a few can even perceive it around them. I only hope you are one of the brighter lights, you break free and we can see something more than links to others telling you how to think and posts on how much you think others should follow with you into the mold they've created for you.
 
I'll work on the link.

The fact of the matter is presdeints run on ideals and agendas and THEN they get elected and face the realities of office. This is why Obama has not ended either wars (the presence of more then 50 k troops in iraq) and the escalation of war in Afghanistan. He has increased both drone attacks on and renditions of, terror suspects (something he openly critisized Bush for) And he has left Gitmo open. Why? Because once in office he understood that he was not the president of his ideals, but of the nations realities. In the same way Bush took office and was faced with the Clinton admins realities of Iraq and Iran...and then 9/11. You will be certain to argue your own skewed interpretations...but those ARE the facts. Bush took office and it was ENTIRELY appropriate for him to be immediately concerned with and looking at what was deemed our most pressing international threats.

You'll 'work on the link'? What kind of bullshit is that ID? Can't find the 'blog' you copied it from?

Facts ID? The only 'fact' to be answered is if your right wing propaganda is based on willful ignorance or you are really that obtuse.

The 'realities' of the Bush administration were clearly revealed by insiders like Richard Clarke, George Tenet, Larry Wilkerson and Bush's first Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill.

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Bush Sought ‘Way’ To Invade Iraq

Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill

Excerpts:

At cabinet meetings, he says the president was "like a blind man in a roomful of deaf people. There is no discernible connection," forcing top officials to act "on little more than hunches about what the president might think."

And what happened at President Bush's very first National Security Council meeting is one of O'Neill's most startling revelations.

“From the very beginning, there was a conviction, that Saddam Hussein was a bad person and that he needed to go,” says O’Neill, who adds that going after Saddam was topic "A" 10 days after the inauguration - eight months before Sept. 11.

“From the very first instance, it was about Iraq. It was about what we can do to change this regime,” says Suskind. “Day one, these things were laid and sealed.”

As treasury secretary, O'Neill was a permanent member of the National Security Council. He says in the book he was surprised at the meeting that questions such as "Why Saddam?" and "Why now?" were never asked.

"It was all about finding a way to do it. That was the tone of it. The president saying ‘Go find me a way to do this,’" says O’Neill. “For me, the notion of pre-emption, that the U.S. has the unilateral right to do whatever we decide to do, is a really huge leap.”

And that came up at this first meeting, says O’Neill, who adds that the discussion of Iraq continued at the next National Security Council meeting two days later.

He got briefing materials under this cover sheet. “There are memos. One of them marked, secret, says, ‘Plan for post-Saddam Iraq,’" adds Suskind, who says that they discussed an occupation of Iraq in January and February of 2001.

He obtained one Pentagon document, dated March 5, 2001, and entitled "Foreign Suitors for Iraqi Oilfield contracts," which includes a map of potential areas for exploration.

During the campaign, candidate Bush had criticized the Clinton-Gore Administration for being too interventionist: "If we don't stop extending our troops all around the world in nation-building missions, then we're going to have a serious problem coming down the road. And I'm going to prevent that."

“The thing that's most surprising, I think, is how emphatically, from the very first, the administration had said ‘X’ during the campaign, but from the first day was often doing ‘Y,’” says Suskind. “Not just saying ‘Y,’ but actively moving toward the opposite of what they had said during the election.”

The president had promised to cut taxes, and he did. Within six months of taking office, he pushed a trillion dollars worth of tax cuts through Congress.
But O'Neill thought it should have been the end. After 9/11 and the war in Afghanistan, the budget deficit was growing. So at a meeting with the vice president after the mid-term elections in 2002, Suskind writes that O'Neill argued against a second round of tax cuts.

“Cheney, at this moment, shows his hand,” says Suskind. “He says, ‘You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter. We won the mid-term elections, this is our due.’ … O'Neill is speechless.”

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/09/60minutes/main592330.shtml

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Obama has done what he said he would do during the campaign. Where were YOU ID? Did you listen to anything Obama said?

The only thing that has not materialized is shutting down Gitmo, which should have never been opened in the first place. Now we find out THIS:

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April 9, 2010

George W. Bush 'knew Guantánamo prisoners were innocent'

George W. Bush, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld covered up that hundreds of innocent men were sent to the Guantánamo Bay prison camp because they feared that releasing them would harm the push for war in Iraq and the broader War on Terror, according to a new document obtained by The Times.

The accusations were made by Lawrence Wilkerson, a top aide to Colin Powell, the former Republican Secretary of State, in a signed declaration to support a lawsuit filed by a Guantánamo detainee. It is the first time that such allegations have been made by a senior member of the Bush Administration.

Colonel Wilkerson, who was General Powell’s chief of staff when he ran the State Department, was most critical of Mr Cheney and Mr Rumsfeld. He claimed that the former Vice-President and Defence Secretary knew that the majority of the initial 742 detainees sent to Guantánamo in 2002 were innocent but believed that it was “politically impossible to release them”.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article7092435.ece


I think it’s just crazy. It's part of that worldview that led us to where we are. Think about it. The United States went and negotiated with and supported Saddam Hussein himself against Iran under this notion that sometimes my enemy is my friend. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. That emboldened Saddam Hussein and allowed him to invade Kuwait. It made us go to war that we did not finish and did not take Saddam Hussein out.
Former Rep. Tom DeLay (R-Texas) 12/11/06 (The Hill)
 
I spend my time reading media matters as well as stuff like this, because it is important to see what the opposition is being told to believe. I find that most people who say things like this never have actually watched Beck, payed any attention other than what media matters feeds them to Rush, and scoff at all things that might be reported on FOX up to and including AP stories reported word for word the same as it was on MSNBC.

So, what about you? Do you care to listen to Beck on occasion to see what he may be saying to his supposed sheep? Personally I don't regularly listen to any of them, but then, for me, it would be like teaching my daughter math. I already know the answers. However, I do listen to Beck when somebody tells me he's saying something, I seek out the context and find out for myself if it really was what he said. Almost invariably, what is reported to sheeple on media matters or liberalsrusblogspot.lib is deliberately taken out of context and fed to an audience who would never deign to listen and find out that they were misled.

Those same people later come here, they try to tell me how to think, link to letters that suggest that because one cripplingly sucky bureaucracy did something, that we MUST hand over whatever they are doing to an even larger and more sucky bureaucracy and then tell me that I won't "read" something because they want to believe me ignorant.

Now, since you've tried to make it so personal in your attempt at your air of superiority, I recognize what batch you were made from. It's up to you if you want to break out of that mold and use information supplied by posters here to actually expand your mind rather than ignore them and cement yourself into preconceived ideas. Most never can break that mold, most never try, and only a few can even perceive it around them. I only hope you are one of the brighter lights, you break free and we can see something more than links to others telling you how to think and posts on how much you think others should follow with you into the mold they've created for you.

Do you consider viewers of Fox 'sheeple' too Damos?
 
Do you consider viewers of Fox 'sheeple' too Damos?
I noticed you didn't bother to answer any of the questions, which leads me to believe that you are one of those people whose only contact with anything Beck, Rush, or FOX is from liberals"r"usblogspotplaygotcha.lib...

As for your question, it would really depend on whether that is their only source of news. Most people here pay attention to more than one source, if only to try to "catch" the other out. I personally sprinkle in many sources and come to my conclusions using information rather than editorials from any of the major news sources or talk radio.

Now, you know where I stand on that. People in either party can be considered "sheeple" if all they allow themselves to see are those opinions that match their own.

Although when I do listen to the radio for enjoyment I do include such things as "liberal radio" here on 760 AM as well as Jason Wright, I do not consider either of those a "news" source. Nor do I consider any movie maker, even one who makes "documentaries", to be better informed solely because he says what I want them to say. It's always easy to post news stories, I do that all the time to start threads when the board is dead, it's just as easy to post editorials. Now using the information rather than the opinion to create an opinion of your own is far more difficult. What I've gathered from you here is that you did not form this opinion from information, you formed it from the opinion in the editorial.
 
I noticed you didn't bother to answer any of the questions, which leads me to believe that you are one of those people whose only contact with anything Beck, Rush, or FOX is from liberals"r"usblogspotplaygotcha.lib...

As for your question, it would really depend on whether that is their only source of news. Most people here pay attention to more than one source, if only to try to "catch" the other out. I personally sprinkle in many sources and come to my conclusions using information rather than editorials from any of the major news sources or talk radio.

Now, you know where I stand on that. People in either party can be considered "sheeple" if all they allow themselves to see are those opinions that match their own.

Although when I do listen to the radio for enjoyment I do include such things as "liberal radio" here on 760 AM as well as Jason Wright, I do not consider either of those a "news" source. Nor do I consider any movie maker, even one who makes "documentaries", to be better informed solely because he says what I want them to say. It's always easy to post news stories, I do that all the time to start threads when the board is dead, it's just as easy to post editorials. Now using the information rather than the opinion to create an opinion of your own is far more difficult. What I've gathered from you here is that you did not form this opinion from information, you formed it from the opinion in the editorial.

Bfgrn...Totally, thoroughly, and categorically pwnd by Damo!

BRAVO!
 
I noticed you didn't bother to answer any of the questions, which leads me to believe that you are one of those people whose only contact with anything Beck, Rush, or FOX is from liberals"r"usblogspotplaygotcha.lib...

As for your question, it would really depend on whether that is their only source of news. Most people here pay attention to more than one source, if only to try to "catch" the other out. I personally sprinkle in many sources and come to my conclusions using information rather than editorials from any of the major news sources or talk radio.

Now, you know where I stand on that. People in either party can be considered "sheeple" if all they allow themselves to see are those opinions that match their own.

Although when I do listen to the radio for enjoyment I do include such things as "liberal radio" here on 760 AM as well as Jason Wright, I do not consider either of those a "news" source. Nor do I consider any movie maker, even one who makes "documentaries", to be better informed solely because he says what I want them to say. It's always easy to post news stories, I do that all the time to start threads when the board is dead, it's just as easy to post editorials. Now using the information rather than the opinion to create an opinion of your own is far more difficult. What I've gathered from you here is that you did not form this opinion from information, you formed it from the opinion in the editorial.

It's pretty funny Damos, because what I've seen of your posts reek of 'superiority' based on nothing but bluster...no backup, links or empirical evidence.

Most of what I post here is my opinions and my beliefs. I base those opinions on a number of things I read and see. I have been around long enough to have experienced the changes in this country that deeply concern me. I more often add Republican sources rather than liberal ones, because the same people who will post propaganda from Drudge Report, Michelle Malkin, Andrew Breitbart, CNS, Fox New, Human Events, Media Research Center, NewsMax or World Net Daily, will dismiss even my Republican sources. They usually just call them RINOs.

I have watched Beck on occasion. BUT, when I comment on something he said that raises controversy, I make sure I watch the whole cited segment IN context. That way when I blast him for being a lying sack of shit, I have the proof...his own words.

BTW Damos, did you take the same umbrage to the slanderous hit job the right did on Jeremiah Wright, where snippets were edited and taken out of contest to smear Obama via a Reverend that had done more for his community that 1000 right wing pundits?
 
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