APP - Above Plain Politics

[montgomery]

First I'll say that it's presumptious of me to suggest that this section of the forum is a contradiction of the label. And so I'm here to test the waters and encourage some discussions that actually can stay within the bounds or respectability. Most of the discussions I've responded to do not.

I'm inviting a rational and polite rebuttal of my opinions.

 

[canceled.2021.1]

Let’s get it on. I have started a number of thoughtful posts. Feel free to participate

 

[montgomery]

Let’s get it on. I have started a number of thoughtful posts. Feel free to participate

Thanks for the invitation to dance. I'll question some of the opinions that I don't feel are correct and/or are not respectable. As you will have already noticed perhaps with me questioning a member referring to women as 'rat women'. Go there if you would like the opportunity to debate that point with me.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello montgomery,

I have no problem avoiding the abuse in the main forum. Anybody mouths off to me and poof, I never talk to them again. It actually works quite well. There are so many posters in the forum I have no lack of people to talk to. Once the others see that I do exactly what I say they know I am serious. They either straighten up or they don't. I don't care. There are plenty more people to talk to. I enjoy it when it's not an issue. Nice people don't have to struggle with being nice. That's just the way they are. Others can turn it on and off at will, and I am fine with that as long as they treat me with respect. I always try to treat everybody with respect so it's only natural I want that to be a two-way street.

The thread-ban feature just helps me save time. That way I don't have to scroll through a bunch of notices that a poster is on my Ignore List.

I also developed the habit of avoiding reading anything in response to a poster on my Ignore List. There's no reason for me to be responding to them, even second-hand. As far as I am concerned, they simply no longer even exist on the face of this planet. I had a perfectly nice life without them up until the time they mouthed off to me and got placed on my Ignore List, and I can have a perfectly nice life without them for the rest of my life too. And that's about as 'mean' as I ever get to anybody. I simply withdraw my presence from their life. I don't need them, so I choose not to interact with them. Simple and quite effective.

I see little has changed here in the APP. Apparently, being polite and having common decency are not very popular. I would love it if there was more activity here, but there clearly isn't.

Part of that has to be self-protection. Consider if someone polite signed up for JPP. What would they find? Well, if they came into APP, they would find nearly no activity. And if they looked in the main free-for-all area, they would stand a giant chance of being told off very nastily within one or two posts. A lot of people don't like that. Normal people don't want to visit a site where some messed up person advises them to commit suicide because they have different political beliefs. So what happens? We end up on a site with a 'member list' which consists of page after page of mostly inactive 'members' who signed up at one time or another, made a handful of posts, and then left, never to return. Probably run off by a messed up mind who takes pleasure in hurting other people's feelings, and has become so desensitized to it that they think that's what everyone does. Except everyone does not do that. As evidenced by the 'member' list.

 

[montgomery]

Hello montgomery,

I have no problem avoiding the abuse in the main forum. Anybody mouths off to me and poof, I never talk to them again. It actually works quite well. There are so many posters in the forum I have no lack of people to talk to. Once the others see that I do exactly what I say they know I am serious. They either straighten up or they don't. I don't care. There are plenty more people to talk to. I enjoy it when it's not an issue. Nice people don't have to struggle with being nice. That's just the way they are. Others can turn it on and off at will, and I am fine with that as long as they treat me with respect. I always try to treat everybody with respect so it's only natural I want that to be a two-way street.

The thread-ban feature just helps me save time. That way I don't have to scroll through a bunch of notices that a poster is on my Ignore List.

I also developed the habit of avoiding reading anything in response to a poster on my Ignore List. There's no reason for me to be responding to them, even second-hand. As far as I am concerned, they simply no longer even exist on the face of this planet. I had a perfectly nice life without them up until the time they mouthed off to me and got placed on my Ignore List, and I can have a perfectly nice life without them for the rest of my life too. And that's about as 'mean' as I ever get to anybody. I simply withdraw my presence from their life. I don't need them, so I choose not to interact with them. Simple and quite effective.

I see little has changed here in the APP. Apparently, being polite and having common decency are not very popular. I would love it if there was more activity here, but there clearly isn't.

Part of that has to be self-protection. Consider if someone polite signed up for JPP. What would they find? Well, if they came into APP, they would find nearly no activity. And if they looked in the main free-for-all area, they would stand a giant chance of being told off very nastily within one or two posts. A lot of people don't like that. Normal people don't want to visit a site where some messed up person advises them to commit suicide because they have different political beliefs. So what happens? We end up on a site with a 'member list' which consists of page after page of mostly inactive 'members' who signed up at one time or another, made a handful of posts, and then left, never to return. Probably run off by a messed up mind who takes pleasure in hurting other people's feelings, and has become so desensitized to it that they think that's what everyone does. Except everyone does not do that. As evidenced by the 'member' list.

Thank you for giving this section a try. A forum has to built up over time and I think this section will be the same. If some people want a civil discussion, the staff has promised to give us that.

I'm glad you voiced your fear of the rules because I'm trying to convince the forum staff that is scaring people away.

You can post both places if you like but please check in once in a while and if you want to post a serioius discussion that isn't spammed by the usual lowlife then you'll be able to post it here. I too will continue with both sections and use this as safe homeground. If the usual abusers want to talk to me it will be here or they will learn to behave themselves on the other section.

 

[iolo]

My own difficulty is that I feel that civility is very specially interpreted in most places. By now it is - generally - not acceptable to call darker-skinned persons by a name beginning with 'N', but it is, it seems, just jolly fun to call me 'Taff' and make a million merry references to my having sexual relations with sheep without ever answering any argument I may be making, or even referring to them. The reason why many of us are not always as polite as we might be at home is not hard to see, though I do welcome the intention to be civil. People are not always conscious of what they are doing, though it is often, like Zionist propaganda, carefully thought out, at least to all appearances, with the intention of silencing opposition entirely.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello montgomery,

Thank you for giving this section a try. A forum has to built up over time and I think this section will be the same. If some people want a civil discussion, the staff has promised to give us that.

I'm glad you voiced your fear of the rules because I'm trying to convince the forum staff that is scaring people away.

You can post both places if you like but please check in once in a while and if you want to post a serioius discussion that isn't spammed by the usual lowlife then you'll be able to post it here. I too will continue with both sections and use this as safe homeground. If the usual abusers want to talk to me it will be here or they will learn to behave themselves on the other section.

Fear of the rules?

I don't see it that way

Respect and fear are two different things.

 

[montgomery]

My own difficulty is that I feel that civility is very specially interpreted in most places. By now it is - generally - not acceptable to call darker-skinned persons by a name beginning with 'N', but it is, it seems, just jolly fun to call me 'Taff' and make a million merry references to my having sexual relations with sheep without ever answering any argument I may be making, or even referring to them. The reason why many of us are not always as polite as we might be at home is not hard to see, though I do welcome the intention to be civil. People are not always conscious of what they are doing, though it is often, like Zionist propaganda, carefully thought out, at least to all appearances, with the intention of silencing opposition entirely.

You're safe to take part in decent discussion here Iolo, and if you receive any abuse I'll be the first to report it to the moderators and expecting quick results. I take them at their word.

 

[montgomery]

Hello montgomery,



Fear of the rules?

I don't see it that way

Respect and fear are two different things.

I said that some members have told me that they fear posting on this section because they fear the rules and they may slip up and be banned. The staff have told me that small infractions won't be treated as a reason for permanent banning. I hope that the moderator who is in charge is intent on being apolitical in administering the rules and doling out punishment. What more can I say about that?

A little help from the staff with some reassurance and interaction on this section would go a long way. Some of them don't hesitate to get involved in the other section.

 

[PoliTalker]

I said that some members have told me that they fear posting on this section because they fear the rules and they may slip up and be banned. The staff have told me that small infractions won't be treated as a reason for permanent banning. I hope that the moderator who is in charge is intent on being apolitical in administering the rules and doling out punishment. What more can I say about that?

A little help from the staff with some reassurance and interaction on this section would go a long way. Some of them don't hesitate to get involved in the other section.

There is no reason to fear being banned if one simply treats others well. Just get OUT of the habit of slamming others or even talking about them. Focus instead on the subject at hand. Begin by critiquing your own posts prior to posting them. Look for the word: 'you.' Try to eliminate ever using it. If using it, be very critical of how it is used. Make darn sure it isn't painting the other in a bad light. It is perfectly OK to attack views/opinions/policy; just not people. Draw a line between that and attacking posters. Habits are hard to break, but it can be done. Usually, it only takes 2-3 weeks to change a habit. After a while, it gets much easier. Then you don't even have to think about it. The new habit of being nice simply replaces the vile old meanie.

Anyone with a habit of being involved in flame wars can change. It doesn't have to rule one's life. It simply takes determination and a desire to improve. Once beyond it, and looking back, it's hard to imagine ever going back to that again. Life is so much more peaceful without the stress of getting so angry and ticked off all the time. One of the trickiest parts is to avoid being triggered. People who live in the gutter operate by drawing others into the gutter with them. Those people often need to be written off to preserve peace of mind.

Another difficulty is presented if living with others who have the habit of arguing nasty. That is the ultimate test of character, to avoid going there when triggered. Good news is that online chat can help with that if the poster looks for ways to express them self without being nasty. It establishes a habit of looking for a way to express feelings while being considerate. It's like practice for the ultimate test, keeping cool when others want to get into a shouting match in the home.

 

[montgomery]

There is no reason to fear being banned if one simply treats others well. Just get OUT of the habit of slamming others or even talking about them. Focus instead on the subject at hand. Begin by critiquing your own posts prior to posting them. Look for the word: 'you.' Try to eliminate ever using it. If using it, be very critical of how it is used. Make darn sure it isn't painting the other in a bad light. It is perfectly OK to attack views/opinions/policy; just not people. Draw a line between that and attacking posters. Habits are hard to break, but it can be done. Usually, it only takes 2-3 weeks to change a habit. After a while, it gets much easier. Then you don't even have to think about it. The new habit of being nice simply replaces the vile old meanie.

Anyone with a habit of being involved in flame wars can change. It doesn't have to rule one's life. It simply takes determination and a desire to improve. Once beyond it, and looking back, it's hard to imagine ever going back to that again. Life is so much more peaceful without the stress of getting so angry and ticked off all the time. One of the trickiest parts is to avoid being triggered. People who live in the gutter operate by drawing others into the gutter with them. Those people often need to be written off to preserve peace of mind.

Another difficulty is presented if living with others who have the habit of arguing nasty. That is the ultimate test of character, to avoid going there when triggered. Good news is that online chat can help with that if the poster looks for ways to express them self without being nasty. It establishes a habit of looking for a way to express feelings while being considerate. It's like practice for the ultimate test, keeping cool when others want to get into a shouting match in the home.

Thank you for your kind advice. Why not post it where it will be read by some of the folks who 'need' the advice might read it?

And as to my comment you responded to? As I said, some members fear posting here because of the risk of being banned from the forum. I can't help sympathize with them on that because the rules were written in a way to get that message across. Are you still resisting accepting that? The only other thing I can say about that right now is that I've given some assurances that they need not fear. And then of course we have a not so carefully camoflaged bit of trolling already with suggestions of some women being rats. How quickly it can change when it starts to matter!

Speaking as one who has likely had much more experience on forums than you, I can tell you that we can never discount the political bias of a forum's moderators. Most likely the difference with this one is that the main section has thrown all moderating to the winds, except for protecting themselves against the legal aspect of what must not be allowed. It has it's pitfalls of course, as we can all see, but it has an advantage, which could become this section of the forum.

The traffic is increasing here but slowly. Participation by some of the moderators who take part on the regular section would go a long way to helping. I can't do it all by myself and so, at least thank 'you' for your help. If you truly want a decent forum then don't let it go.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello montgomery,

Thank you for your kind advice. Why not post it where it will be read by some of the folks who 'need' the advice might read it?

I do so regularly. There is not much instant gratification for doing that. Immediate feedback to such postings usually runs negative. People who are mouthing off at others don't want to be advised not to do that. I don't want to wear that out. My approach is that it should be done sparingly, when it seems appropriate. I think it is a battle which can yield mild results over time, but never be won. Changes are subtle, but I'd like to think some heed the wise words and do try to focus more on subject matter and less on the other poster.

And as to my comment you responded to? As I said, some members fear posting here because of the risk of being banned from the forum. I can't help sympathize with them on that because the rules were written in a way to get that message across. Are you still resisting accepting that? The only other thing I can say about that right now is that I've given some assurances that they need not fear. And then of course we have a not so carefully camoflaged bit of trolling already with suggestions of some women being rats. How quickly it can change when it starts to matter!

Best to simply make it a goal to abstain from ever talking about others. That way, those little habits won't catch somebody up.

Speaking as one who has likely had much more experience on forums than you, I can tell you that we can never discount the political bias of a forum's moderators.

I've been chatting online for over two decades. Bias is inescapable. If I was a mod, I would be biased. Grind should be applauded for allowing opposing views. He should not be faulted for having his own views. The views are what should be disputed.

Most likely the difference with this one is that the main section has thrown all moderating to the winds, except for protecting themselves against the legal aspect of what must not be allowed. It has it's pitfalls of course, as we can all see, but it has an advantage, which could become this section of the forum.

I'm all for having a stringently moderated forum, but the result is logically going to be reduced participation. Just as we have seen.

The traffic is increasing here but slowly. Participation by some of the moderators who take part on the regular section would go a long way to helping. I can't do it all by myself and so, at least thank 'you' for your help. If you truly want a decent forum then don't let it go.

If we just get some intriguing conversations going, more people will want to join in. It might be helpful if people were automatically granted access here after a certain period of time of clean posting (no violations) in the other forums, instead of needing to ask for special permission to post here. But that would also create more work for moderators, because there would be more violations here.

 

[montgomery]

If we just get some intriguing conversations going, more people will want to join in. It might be helpful if people were automatically granted access here after a certain period of time of clean posting (no violations) in the other forums, instead of needing to ask for special permission to post here. But that would also create more work for moderators, because there would be more violations here.

There are no prerequisites imposed on members before they are allowed to post on this section of the forum and to impose any would be wrong. It's simply stated that if they come here then they behave themselves. We already have one or two trying to circumvent the rules and destroy any chances of this section making it. Maybe you could help by noticing that and putting in your two cents worth to stop it?

The other forum isn't likely to be changed and I can understand why. The traffic is very desirable to the owner's and the staff's purposes. Having a side section such as this seems to be a good answer for those who want something better. Help me make it work. Otherwise, convincing me is like preaching to the choir.

For an immediate challenge for you on this section, see the comments of of the two others who are desperately trying to mix it up and bring it down already. Showing you can respond to them in a decent way will put the challenge to them. You'll notice that I already have!

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello montgomery,

There are no prerequisites imposed on members before they are allowed to post on this section of the forum and to impose any would be wrong. It's simply stated that if they come here then they behave themselves. We already have one or two trying to circumvent the rules and destroy any chances of this section making it.

I don't see how one or two can destroy this forum. If the mods are doing their job disrupters are removed.

Maybe you could help by noticing that and putting in your two cents worth to stop it?

I have always advocated for civil discourse.

The other forum isn't likely to be changed and I can understand why. The traffic is very desirable to the owner's and the staff's purposes. Having a side section such as this seems to be a good answer for those who want something better. Help me make it work. Otherwise, convincing me is like preaching to the choir.

I have already agreed to post here and to observe the rules.

For an immediate challenge for you on this section, see the comments of of the two others who are desperately trying to mix it up and bring it down already. Showing you can respond to them in a decent way will put the challenge to them. You'll notice that I already have!

I do not respond to anyone on my Ignore List. I do not even read the posts which are replying to people on my Ignore List. I have found my PIP to be highly effective. My strict rules are meant to send a distinct message that I will not tolerate people mouthing off at me, that I will take steps to avoid it, and that I mean what I say. I can't change other people, but I can control who I interface with. Once an individual demonstrates they are not worth interfacing with I do exactly what I said I was going to do and I don't undo it. As long as people want to be polite and talk about the issues facing our nation and the world, I am happy to exchange thoughts with them. I don't come here to be insulted. I come to talk about Just Plain Politics.

 

[montgomery]

Hello montgomery,



I don't see how one or two can destroy this forum. If the mods are doing their job disrupters are removed.



I have always advocated for civil discourse.



I have already agreed to post here and to observe the rules.



I do not respond to anyone on my Ignore List. I do not even read the posts which are replying to people on my Ignore List. I have found my PIP to be highly effective. My strict rules are meant to send a distinct message that I will not tolerate people mouthing off at me, that I will take steps to avoid it, and that I mean what I say. I can't change other people, but I can control who I interface with. Once an individual demonstrates they are not worth interfacing with I do exactly what I said I was going to do and I don't undo it. As long as people want to be polite and talk about the issues facing our nation and the world, I am happy to exchange thoughts with them. I don't come here to be insulted. I come to talk about Just Plain Politics.

To say something on the topic of this thread. I'm growing weary of trying to get this section of the forum going. There's little support from many others and none from any of the moderators who I have appealed to for support.

Except for bluedream who has posted here but on a thread I'm banned from being able to respond. That's not helpful at all and could be a political statement by bluedream in cooperation with her rightist allies. Bluedream doesn't make any pretentions to be politically impartial and I don't consider that appropriate.

If that's what the moderator team wants for this forum then I'm going to be powerless to change things.

 

[Ross Dolan]

This is what you are going to get here, Montgomery.

You and Poli having a polite conversation with each other.

This site is not about polite conversations...it is about mud-slinging warfare.

I suspect if you and Poli truly wanted "polite conversations"...you would be at a different site have those kinds of conversations. But you both seem to be more interested in having conversations about why there are no polite conversations at THIS site.

Good luck with whatever you think you are doing...but you've got a better chance of getting a Trump supporter to talk about all the good attributes of Hillary Clinton.

 

[montgomery]

This is what you are going to get here, Montgomery.

You and Poli having a polite conversation with each other.

This site is not about polite conversations...it is about mud-slinging warfare.

I suspect if you and Poli truly wanted "polite conversations"...you would be at a different site have those kinds of conversations. But you both seem to be more interested in having conversations about why there are no polite conversations at THIS site.

Good luck with whatever you think you are doing...but you've got a better chance of getting a Trump supporter to talk about all the good attributes of Hillary Clinton.

I'm aware of the odds and thanks for the warning. Right now it's a little more than just Poli and me and I'm still hoping that the moderators and staff will try to help out a bit.

This site is unique in a couple of ways. The regular section is so devoid of rules ensure any decent discussion. That's both a good thing and a bad thing.

But there's this section of the forum that is also unique and something no other forum I know of truly has. If we can make this section work then it's going to be something different. Sadly, so far, I've only seen what I see as an attempt by the staff to do it harm.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello Frank,

This is what you are going to get here, Montgomery.

You and Poli having a polite conversation with each other.

This site is not about polite conversations...it is about mud-slinging warfare.

I suspect if you and Poli truly wanted "polite conversations"...you would be at a different site have those kinds of conversations. But you both seem to be more interested in having conversations about why there are no polite conversations at THIS site.

Good luck with whatever you think you are doing...but you've got a better chance of getting a Trump supporter to talk about all the good attributes of Hillary Clinton.

Good one, Frank. Time will tell. We won't know unless we try.

Funny thing is: Even with a large Ignore List, I am left with such a great volume of subjects / posters to engage with that I can't possibly keep up with it all. I've found that many people are quite adept at turning the flame throwers on and off at will. I suspect there are a goodly number who wouldn't mind a diversion from the all too predictable food fights. We did have a Clean Debate Week earlier this year.

Maybe this is how a more popular APP gets started. By having conversations here.

 

[PoliTalker]

I'm aware of the odds and thanks for the warning. Right now it's a little more than just Poli and me and I'm still hoping that the moderators and staff will try to help out a bit.

This site is unique in a couple of ways. The regular section is so devoid of rules ensure any decent discussion. That's both a good thing and a bad thing.

But there's this section of the forum that is also unique and something no other forum I know of truly has. If we can make this section work then it's going to be something different. Sadly, so far, I've only seen what I see as an attempt by the staff to do it harm.

Well, the problem is if this forum gets popular it is going to require a lot more work on the part of the mods. Stricter rules are going to need more moderation. Who is going to do that extra work to make it happen?

And besides. It is entirely possible to have an abuse-free experience in the main forums. Simply adopt my PIP. It works like a charm.

"Personal Ignore Policy PIP: Very simple. I am into civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Flame on me, mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you go on my Ignore List. Zero tolerance. PERMANENT. Forever. No exceptions ever. And you will be banned from any Thread I create. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate!"

 

[montgomery]

Well, the problem is if this forum gets popular it is going to require a lot more work on the part of the mods. Stricter rules are going to need more moderation. Who is going to do that extra work to make it happen?

And besides. It is entirely possible to have an abuse-free experience in the main forums. Simply adopt my PIP. It works like a charm.

"Personal Ignore Policy PIP: Very simple. I am into civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Flame on me, mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you go on my Ignore List. Zero tolerance. PERMANENT. Forever. No exceptions ever. And you will be banned from any Thread I create. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate!"

I wish it was possible to have your PIP theory working on a forum, but I'm afraid it's not possible. Moderators are human and tend to ban those who don't match their political persuasion. I've been banned from many, as has Iolo, who I know quite well. She's been banned from nearly all of the ones I've been banned from.

We tend to blame ourselves for being banned from forums but after much experience I've come to realize that it's impossible t last for long on any of them. It's moderator bias that is the problem. Here we have an opportunity to make it different for a while at least. If it catches on and the right can't maintain an upper hand, they will be rescued with some lame excuse. Fun eh!