Al Gore and Atheists

They have the better arguement as far as provable truth.

No such thing as absolute (ie provable) truth.

They just have a better structure to test the arguments...
 
I think there is provable truth.

I think therefore I am.
Truth is the earth exsists and water exsists and on this earth water behaves in a consistant matter when heated or chilledl

I have skin,blood and flesh.

These are provable truths.
 
I am arguing against the whole "My argument is better because Logos says this..." idea.

I state that my argument is better because it USES logos, not because of what logos states.

Pathos is ill equipped to provide any argument, it creates on obscurum per obscurius argument. It doesn't create clarity, it clouds. It creates ambigious understanding.

To claim that pathos deals with the supernatural is a fallacy, without logos how would we comprehend those notions we deem supernatural?


Attempting to say that because a Supernatural being doesn't fit nicely within the rules you attempt to make it fit is equally weak as saying that because this being cannot be defined within those rules that means you must accept their personal experience.

You are making a huge assumption here. That is that the supernatural exists and thus logos cannot explain it.

If you want to establish the existence of something, which is the more valid...

a. I feel something exists...
b. Something exists and these are the deductions that this statement is based upon...



The whole reason to "question their belief" is to get them to see things your way (obviously), and you do it from a foundationless argument based in natural law against Faith based in personal experience.


Damo, Logic isn't natural law!!!! It deals with the metaphysical AND the physical.

Logic is predominant in mathematics, which is not physical....

Logic is a method by which we judge the quality of arguments. Logos based arguments are arguments based on logical deduction, pathos based arguments appeal only to the emotions....
 
Last edited:
I think there is provable truth.

I think therefore I am.

Cogito ergo sum?

Descartes' fallacy. Cogito ergo cogito, maybe. Cogito ergo sum... nah.. It is non sequiter. It is based on the notion that thought equates to existence....
 
Truth is the earth exsists and water exsists and on this earth water behaves in a consistant matter when heated or chilledl

I have skin,blood and flesh.

How do you know that they exist? You only have your senses to go by. We can verify them by asking others to use their senses to confirm this but again this doesn't produce absolute knowledge (ie proof)....

You cannot rule out deception, by your senses, by others, by other's senses....
 
AOI tell your telecom company to hurry the fuck up.

Probably be out until I move house at the beginning of October. Fallen out with the company and am refusing to pay my bill (well for a while anyway)...

I will arrange with my mate to use his connection this weekend... Will U2U you...
 
Oh the old my entire universe might be someone elses dream and I will go away when they wake up ? Anything is possible, keep an open mind.
 
Damo, Logic isn't natural law!!!! It deals with the metaphysical AND the physical.

Logic is predominant in mathematics, which is not physical....

Logic is a method by which we judge the quality of arguments. Logos based arguments are arguments based on logical deduction, pathos based arguments appeal only to the emotions....

However it is illogical to assume that a Supernatural being is subject to natural law and that is the whole of your argument. Whether or not a Natural being exists is easily proven by pulling out the being and putting it on parade. A Supernatural being that exists "within us all" cannot be proven/disproven using this type of logic.

Logos does not have the tools to argue for or against this type of belief. It is plainly ill-equipped, as equally as Pathos is to argue science.

Your Logos is simply not the tool to argue for or against the Supernatural. Unless one is using devices like the "Ghost Hunters" on the SCI Fi Channel to measure energy... I guess, but then we are looking at natural law.... I'm digressing.

Just saying it doesn't fit neatly into a Logos argument thus your argument has no merit is simply silly when dealing with the Supernatural. Just saying "You can't prove it!" isn't going to change somebody's personal experience. For whatever reason they believe that this Supernatural Being is a certainty, more often than not a personal experience is what brought them to that belief.

Telling people they should ignore their own experience because it doesn't fit within Logos is like telling water in a river to stop running South to North because usually water runs north to south... Totally ineffective.
 
I fully support the "your personal experience is not enough to get me to believe" stance. I just laugh at the "your personal experience isn't enough for YOU to believe" stance.
 
There are cases in which a person fully belives something unprovable.

That does not give reality to that in which they believe.

I believe only in things which have fact based proof of exsistance.

I dont believe in fairies just as I dont believe in angels.

I dont believe in the lockness monster and I dont believe in god.
 
However it is illogical to assume that a Supernatural being is subject to natural law and that is the whole of your argument.

Logic is not a natural law, it deals with the metaphysical AND the physical.

This is a classic obscurum per obscurius argument used by the religious.

"God exists outside in a plane outside of our possible understanding"

Logos dictates the reply to this to be..

"If it is outside of our possible understanding then how do you know of it's existence?"


Just saying "You can't prove it!" isn't going to change somebody's personal experience.

Strawman warning. I haven't said 'you can't prove it' as evidence of the non-existence of the transcendental. The religious use the argument 'you can't prove me wrong' to substantiate their claims, and I believe, you have used a similar argument here today.

I have said that the arguments used are weak, that they are unsubstantiated and unverified because they are based on pathos. They are weak because they claim understanding of the existence of the transcendental and yet claim the transcendental is in the emotional plane that cannot be substantiated or comprehended.


Telling people they should ignore their own experience because it doesn't fit within Logos is like telling water in a river to stop running South to North because usually water runs north to south... Totally ineffective.

Again, strawman... I haven't informed people to ignore their experience, but to question it, to hold the assumptions they make under scrutiny, rather than merely accept them for pathos reasons...

I have asked them to explain the logical gaps and fallacies in their arguments, to question the origins of the knowledge that caused such emotions, to provide substantiation other than obscurum per obscurius arguments that create nothing but ambiguity.
 
I dont believe Im a dream because their is no prooveable evidence Im a dream.

If one day someone brings me proof Ill believe Im a dream.

If someday someone brings me proof Ill believe in god.

If someday someone brings me proof Ill believe in the lockness monster.
 
I fully support the "your personal experience is not enough to get me to believe" stance. I just laugh at the "your personal experience isn't enough for YOU to believe" stance.

The slightest thing is enough for people to believe in the transcendental.

My argument is that mere belief isn't enough...
 
I dont believe Im a dream because their is no prooveable evidence Im a dream.

If one day someone brings me proof Ill believe Im a dream.

If someday someone brings me proof Ill believe in god.

If someday someone brings me proof Ill believe in the lockness monster.
If someday somebody proves your existence, I'll believe with a certainty that you exist.
 
I fully support the "your personal experience is not enough to get me to believe" stance. I just laugh at the "your personal experience isn't enough for YOU to believe" stance.

The slightest thing is enough for people to believe in the transcendental.

My argument is that mere belief isn't enough...
LOL. Like I said, I laugh at the "Your personal experience isn't enough for YOU to believe!" argument. They decide what is enough for them, not you. And their personal experience, had it happened to you, might have caused even you to believe, you may never know...
 
Back
Top