America Is Not A Christian Country

PostmodernProphet said:
there are some god-deniers who are not aware of the author......no one pays them much attention......



hardly implausible......Jesus' ministry dates around 30 AD and John refers to himself in the gospel as "the young man".......he could have put the gospel to writing in his late 70s......
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So your contention is that a ~90 year old apostle John wrote the Gospel in 95 AD.?

That is an incredible life span for a peasant from Galilee in the first century AD.

The apostle John was from a family of poor Aramaic speaking fishermen from a backwater province of Galilee

There is exactly zero credible chance a first century Aramaic speaking peasant could have written a sophisticated, highly articulate treatise in Greek.

Jesus' disciples were mostly illiterate, Aramaic speaking peasants from a rural backwater province.

Acts 4:13 even says Peter and John were uneducated.

The authors of the New Testament gospels were highly educated Greek speakers.

The scholarly consensus is that the authors of the Gospels are anonymous and writing four to five decades after Jesus was executed. It was later church tradition which retroactively attributed the Gospels to two apostles and two companions of the apostles.
 
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Cypress said:
So your contention is that a ~90 year old apostle John wrote the Gospel in 95 AD.?

That is an incredible life span for a peasant from Galilee in the first century AD.

The apostle John was from a family of poor Aramaic speaking fishermen from a backwater province of Galilee

There is exactly zero credible chance a first century Aramaic speaking peasant could have written a sophisticated, highly articulate treatise in Greek.

Jesus' disciples were mostly illiterate, Aramaic speaking peasants from a rural backwater province.

Acts 4:13 even says Peter and John were uneducated.

The authors of the New Testament gospels were highly educated Greek speakers.

The scholarly consensus is that the authors of the Gospels are anonymous and writing four to five decades after Jesus was executed. It was later church tradition which retroactively attributed the Gospels to two apostles and two companions of the apostles.
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no......it is not my contention that he was in his 90s.......it is your assumption that he was born in the same decade as Jesus, an unfounded assumption.......it is my contention he was in his late 70s, which is not an incredible lifespan........

and for a person in that day to have access to scribes among his followers is certainly not incredible.....

it is true that the consensus among atheists scholars is that they know little about the bible.......however the consensus among biblical scholars who aren't dedicated to creating falsehoods about it is that the unanimous historical attribution of the scriptures to the persons they are named after is correct.......it was not later church tradition which created the attribution........it was simply the formal acceptance of that historical attribution in canon form.......
 
PostmodernProphet said:
no......it is not my contention that he was in his 90s.......it is your assumption that he was born in the same decade as Jesus, an unfounded assumption.......it is my contention he was in his late 70s, which is not an incredible lifespan........

and for a person in that day to have access to scribes among his followers is certainly not incredible.....

it is true that the consensus among atheists scholars is that they know little about the bible.......however the consensus among biblical scholars who aren't dedicated to creating falsehoods about it is that the unanimous historical attribution of the scriptures to the persons they are named after is correct.......it was not later church tradition which created the attribution........it was simply the formal acceptance of that historical attribution in canon form.......
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the Apostle John was an Aramaic speaking peasant who could not even write in his native language, let alone compose a highly sophisticated and erudite treatise in Greek.

It sounds like you have never been exposed to real New Testament scholarship
 
Cypress said:
the Apostle John was an Aramaic speaking peasant who could not even write in his native language, let alone compose a highly sophisticated and erudite treatise in Greek.

It sounds like you have never been exposed to real New Testament scholarship
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sounds like you've never heard of scribes......you don't think there were many who followed him listening to what he said, who would be willing to write down what he dictated and send them to the various churches that were being started all around the known world in the first century?......

for that matter, why do you think it impossible that someone who began as a Aramaic speaking peasant who, as a young unmarried man when he became a disciple, was probably well under the age of twenty........could learn how to speak and write Greek by the time he was seventy?......
 
PostmodernProphet said:
and yet I have two post graduate degrees........I cannot explain your inability to believe the truth, though I have observed it here on a daily basis.......
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You keep claiming so but there's zero evidence of your education. You're not a Christian. Your posting style lacks sophistication. While you may have some college, I strongly doubt you have two Masters degrees unless you printed them yourself.
 
PostmodernProphet said:
sounds like you've never heard of scribes......you don't think there were many who followed him listening to what he said, who would be willing to write down what he dictated and send them to the various churches that were being started all around the known world in the first century?......

for that matter, why do you think it impossible that someone who began as a Aramaic speaking peasant who, as a young unmarried man when he became a disciple, was probably well under the age of twenty........could learn how to speak and write Greek by the time he was seventy?......
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1) While Church fathers quoted the Gospels, nobody identified the authors as Mark, Mathew, Luke, John until the middle of the 2nd century - this indicates that Christians retroactively attributed authorship to the Gospels to the apostles and companions of the apostles.

2) Now you are backtracking and saying a scribe wrote the Gospel of John, not John himself.

3) Jesus' disciples were Aramaic speaking peasants and it defies reasonable credibility that they composed sophisticated treatises in Greek, a language they almost certainly did not speak.

4) John would have had to been an adult when Jesus was executed around 30 AD. That would have made John around 80 to 90 years old when the Gospel of John was written at the end of the 1st century. That seems highly unlikely. The average peasant in the Roman Empire rarely lived past their 40s.


- The bottom line: The fact that the Gospels of the NT were written by anonymous highly educated Greek writers between 65 to 95 AD based on the oral tradition circulating about the life of Jesus does not diminish their importance, or the wisdom they contain.
 
Cypress said:
1) While Church fathers quoted the Gospels, nobody identified the authors as Mark, Mathew, Luke, John until the middle of the 2nd century - this indicates that Christians retroactively attributed authorship to the Gospels to the apostles and companions of the apostles.

2) Now you are backtracking and saying a scribe wrote the Gospel of John, not John himself.

3) Jesus' disciples were Aramaic speaking peasants and it defies reasonable credibility that they composed sophisticated treatises in Greek, a language they almost certainly did not speak.

4) John would have had to been an adult when Jesus was executed around 30 AD. That would have made John around 80 to 90 years old when the Gospel of John was written at the end of the 1st century. That seems highly unlikely. The average peasant in the Roman Empire rarely lived past their 40s.


- The bottom line: The fact that the Gospels of the NT were written by anonymous highly educated Greek writers between 65 to 95 AD based on the oral tradition circulating about the life of Jesus does not diminish their importance, or the wisdom they contain.
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All knowledge I'd expect any theology student to know, much less one claiming to have two post-graduate degrees.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
All knowledge I'd expect any theology student to know, much less one claiming to have two post-graduate degrees.
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Depends what kind of school one attends.

Falwell Liberty University?

Or a legitimate reputable seminary or graduate school of religious studies?

There is a world of difference between a legitimate religious studies curriculum, and a bible thumping divinity school.
 
Cypress said:
Depends what kind of school one attends.

Falwell Liberty University?

Or a legitimate reputable seminary or graduate school of religious studies?

There is a world of difference between a legitimate religious studies curriculum, and a bible thumping divinity school.
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Hard to believe Postmodernprophet has a high school diploma. The guy is an idiot.
 
Cypress said:
So your contention is that a ~90 year old apostle John wrote the Gospel in 95 AD.?

That is an incredible life span for a peasant from Galilee in the first century AD.

The apostle John was from a family of poor Aramaic speaking fishermen from a backwater province of Galilee

There is exactly zero credible chance a first century Aramaic speaking peasant could have written a sophisticated, highly articulate treatise in Greek.

Jesus' disciples were mostly illiterate, Aramaic speaking peasants from a rural backwater province.

Acts 4:13 even says Peter and John were uneducated.

The authors of the New Testament gospels were highly educated Greek speakers.

The scholarly consensus is that the authors of the Gospels are anonymous and writing four to five decades after Jesus was executed. It was later church tradition which retroactively attributed the Gospels to two apostles and two companions of the apostles.
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He’d probably be older than 90-95. If he started to follow Jesus at 18, that would make him over 100 years old.
 
Cypress said:
Depends what kind of school one attends.

Falwell Liberty University?

Or a legitimate reputable seminary or graduate school of religious studies?

There is a world of difference between a legitimate religious studies curriculum, and a bible thumping divinity school.
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Even then I'd expect they'd mention and then dispute it. Their graduates need to be able to counter any arguments against their beliefs.

Anyone who can't must have gotten their degree off the Internet like this:

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Phantasmal said:
He’d probably be older than 90-95. If he started to follow Jesus at 18, that would make him over 100 years old.
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Holy smoke.
It defies belief.

The overwhelming balance of evidence is that the Gospels were not written by the Apostles Mathew and John, or the companions to the Apostles Luke and Mark.


Pretty surprising that anyone who has studied with legitimate New Testament scholars could not be aware of this.
 
NiftyNiblick said:
Most likely quite true, but I'll pass on both, thanks.
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I am interested in study of world religions.

I believe one cannot understand history, philosophy, culture, the human condition without having a good working knowlege of world faith traditions.

Just my two cents.
 
Cypress said:
I am interested in study of world religions.

I believe one cannot understand history, philosophy, culture, the human condition without having a good working knowlege of world faith traditions.

Just my two cents.
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No, you're a proselytizer. And you understand nothing about philosophy.
 
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