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If you can find a link that proves that punishment for the purpose of retribution alone has the effect of reducing crime and making sure as little harm is done to as few people as possible then I will believe you.
American society
- Thread starter FUCK THE POLICE
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If you can find a link that proves that punishment for the purpose of retribution alone has the effect of reducing crime and making sure as little harm is done to as few people as possible then I will believe you.
Diuretic
New member
That would be okay if I were trying to prove that retribution alone has the effect of reducing crime. I'm not trying to prove that because I don't hold that opinion. I do think that sentencing policy should be multi-faceted, to alow judges to pronounce a sentence that is going to be, when everything else is considered, beneficial all round. I suppose you could lump me in the Benthamite camp on that. I'm not sucked in my the excluded middle, it's not a case of retribution or rehabilitation, it's much more complex than that.
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Upon thinking about it I'm really starting to lose faith in the pragmatism of rehabilitation. Until we can find a fullproof method to treat antisocials, the only thing we can hope to do is reduce recividism by small percentages. It doesn't mean we shouldn't try.
I too, however, think that judges should be given a lot of leeway in deciding a sentence. However, there needs to be some sort of review process, also...
But most judges will shy away from giving child rapists, say, 40 day sentences, because of the threat of impeachment. Most state judges are elected, though. But I really think judges should be appointed.
Diuretic
New member
No, it doesn't mean we shouldn't try, I agree. If we have a criminal justice system that doesn't value the concept of rehabilitation then we have a criminal justice system that is intent on breaking the errant individual. It would send us back to the 18th Century and beyond, back to before the idea of redemption (brought to penology by the Christian reformers such as John Howard). Rehabilitation may be an elusive goal but that's no reason not to try it. I would suggest that if there's a huge failure in rehabilitation that it's not being done properly.
10—Matters to be considered by sentencing court
(1) A court, in determining sentence for an offence, should have regard to such of the following matters as are relevant and known to the court:
(a) the circumstances of the offence;
(b) other offences (if any) that are to be taken into account;
(c) if the offence forms part of a course of conduct consisting of a series of criminal acts of the same or a similar character—that course of conduct;
(d) the personal circumstances of any victim of the offence;
(e) any injury, loss or damage resulting from the offence;
(eaa) the need to give proper effect to the policy stated in subsection (1b);
(ea) in the case of an offence committed by an intruder in the home of another—the need to give proper effect to the policy stated in subsection (2);
(eb) in the case of arson or causing a bushfire—the need to give proper effect to the policy stated in subsection (3);
(ec) in the case of a sexual offence committed against a child—the need to give proper effect to the policy stated in subsection (4);
(f) the degree to which the defendant has shown contrition for the offence—
(i) by taking action to make reparation for any injury, loss or damage resulting from the offence; or
(ii) in any other manner;
(g) if the defendant has pleaded guilty to the charge of the offence—that fact;
(h) the degree to which the defendant has co-operated in the investigation of the offence;
(j) the deterrent effect any sentence under consideration may have on the defendant or other persons;
(k) the need to ensure that the defendant is adequately punished for the offence;
(ka) if a forfeiture of property (other than a forfeiture that merely neutralises a benefit that has been obtained through the commission of the offence) is, or is to be imposed, as a result of the commission of the offence—the nature and extent of the forfeiture;
(l) the character, antecedents, age, means and physical or mental condition of the defendant;
(m) the rehabilitation of the defendant;
the probable effect any sentence under consideration would have on dependants of the defendant;
(o) any other relevant matter.
(1a) However, a court, in determining sentence for an offence, must disregard any mandatory minimum non-parole period prescribed in respect of the sentence under this Act or another Act.
(1b) A primary policy of the criminal law is to protect the safety of the community.
(2) A primary policy of the criminal law is to protect the security of the lawful occupants of the home from intruders.
(3) A primary policy of the criminal law in relation to arson or causing a bushfire is—
(a) to bring home to the offender the extreme gravity of the offence; and
(b) to exact reparation from the offender, to the maximum extent possible under the criminal justice system, for harm done to the community.
Examples—
1 The court may, with the consent of victims of the offence or victims of the kind of harm that the offence could have caused, require the offender (under appropriate supervision) to meet with the victims.
2 The court may direct that the offender (whether in prison, on parole or undertaking community service) participate (under appropriate supervision) in programs to rehabilitate fire damaged land or other property.
(4) A primary policy of the criminal law is to protect children from sexual predators by ensuring that, in any sentence for an offence involving sexual exploitation of a child, paramount consideration is given to the need for deterrence.
(4a) Despite any other provision of this Act, in determining sentence for an offence a court must not have regard to any consequences that may arise under the Child Sex Offenders Registration Act 2006 .
(5) If a defendant has participated in an intervention program, a court may treat the defendant's participation in the program, and the defendant's achievements in the program, as relevant to sentence.
(6) However, the fact that a defendant—
(a) has not participated in, or has not had the opportunity to participate in, an intervention program; or
(b) has performed badly in, or has failed to make satisfactory progress in, such a program,
is not relevant to sentence.
Complex but balanced.
FUCK THE POLICE
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Diuretic, you just copied that from a random law somewhere. Is it a US or Australian one?
Diuretic
New member
Of course I copied it, you don't think I'd be able to come up with that lot by myself do you? It's part of the Criminal Law (Sentencing) Act in my state. It's been in place for some years and it guides sentencing (obviously).
Have a look here - http://www.courts.sa.gov.au/sent_remarks/index.html - you can see the Act (specifically s.10) in operation in the judges' sentencing remarks.
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Your sentencing guidelines are so goddamned nuanced! Mississippi's sentencing guidlines are just a bunch of arbitrary minimums and maximums:
http://www.mslawyer.com/crimes.htm
http://www.mslawyer.com/crimes.htm
blackascoal
The Force is With Me
If that were REMOTELY true, America wouldn't be the greatest prison nation of the planet.
5% of the world's population and 25% of all the world's prisoners ..
That sound you hear is your attempt at logic flying out the window.
Litmus
Verified User
We may have more crime if we DIDN'T imprison that many. We don't know.
Socrtease
Verified User
Do you have a link? I do, to murder rates compared to executions in regions of the country.
In the south the murder rate per 100,000 is higher than it is in the northeast. The murder rate in the south last year was 6.8 per 100,000. The murder rate in the northeast was 4.5 per 100,000. Since 1976 there have been 901 executions in the south and just 4 in the Northeast. So with so many more executions in the south, using your deterent argument, the murder rate per 100,000 would necessarily be lower. But it isn't. Arguably the higher the execution rate the greater the murder rate. So just looking at numbers it appears there is a reverse corelation between execution, the harshest form of punishment, and murder.
Now if you look state by state, those states that have no death penalty statute have, in some cases hugely lower murder rates than those states with the death penalty.
Alabama, a state with 4.5 million people and a death penalty statute had a murder rate of 8.3 per 100,000 in 2006.
New York, a state with 18.9 million people or 4.2 times as many people as Alabama, and no general death penalty statute ( can be sought for murdering a police officer in the line of duty) had a murder rate of 4.8 per 100,000.
Even more drastic of a comparison would be comparing Alabama to Massachusetts which has 6.3 million people so is closer in size to Alabama and has no death penalty. Their murder rate for 2006 was 2.9 per 100,000.
The corelation between harshness of sentence and deterence aren't there.
I even did the math for murder rates for the states that have the DP and states that don't. The murder rate for the 13 states without the DP is 3.1 per 100,000. The Murder rate for the 37 states that do have it is 5.348 per 100,000. No deterent effect can be found in the harshest sentence meted out by man.
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=12&did=169
Litmus
Verified User
Im not debating levels of harshness. Im debating punishing crime versus not punishing crime. In general punishment is a deterrent. Statistics are not actually availabe on NOT punishing crime, because we punish crime.
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As I said up there...
I think a society that largely supports the death penalty is, by nature, a brutal society, and much more likely to have murders in it, since the people themselves all consider murder acceptable.
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Yes, but it has degenerating effectiveness. Punishing armed robbery with, say, 1000 years in prison generally doesn't deter armed robbery much more than 5 or 10 years.
Diuretic
New member
On murder - what's the most common context in the US? I know that's not an easy question so an indicator would be useful, I'm not trying to bludgeon anyone here. I am probably taking a fairly crude approach to the analysis but if the murder context in the US was divided between home/affiliates and public/non-affiliates may be it would present a clearer picture.
As an example, in New South Wales, our most populous state in Australia, most murders are committed in the domestic environment. This is an interesting, if metaphor-loaded article - http://tinyurl.com/2h6sgk
As an example, in New South Wales, our most populous state in Australia, most murders are committed in the domestic environment. This is an interesting, if metaphor-loaded article - http://tinyurl.com/2h6sgk
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FUCK THE POLICE
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That's probably how it is in America. It's not very often that someone just randomly goes out and kills someone.
It sure does make the news whenever it happens, though...
Litmus
Verified User
Fine. But a life sentence makes it impossible for them to recommit. Merely segregating the miscreants is a value itself, even absent reform, or additional deterrent value.
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That's true, but I'd prefer to use life sentences as a last resort.
I'm kind of OK with the three strikes laws, but I think that after the third strikes life should only be one of the sentencing options available to the judge, not a mandatory thing, in order to avoid some of the miscarriages of justice that have been happening.
Litmus
Verified User
That's fine with me. ANd in general I agree our system is a maybe a bit too nazi like. Especially in the drug realm. And I can almost see rethinking capital punishment. The brutalization of society factor you were mentioning is real I believe, but I still think there should be SOME Punishments. That's all. We're not really far apart on this. Everyone is just so used to treating me oppositionally that enmity is unfairly presumed, when I'm actually really nice and cool. Im the victim.
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Quick everybody team up an insult Asshat! 