Are the existence of matter and energy life's ONLY mysteries?

Cypress said:
That was precisely my point The concept of numerical quantification is independent of humans.

Others on this thread howled at me that the concept of integers and counting numbers had to wait for human invention.
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Cy, literally NO ONE is suggesting that. LITERALLY NO ONE. You make everyone's points into something you debate against, even when they never said it.

NO ONE thinks quantities had to wait for humans to exist. No one.

So stop trying to argue the strawman all the time. BE HONEST in your debates at SOME POINT. Thanks in advance.
 
Cypress said:
It's definitely a philosophical question.

The universal law of gravitation existed billions of years before humans discovered it. Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, and the Higgs field seem to have an existence independent of motion and matter. The electroweak and strong fundamental forces seem to have been unified into a grand unified force fractions of a second before matter like quarks and protons existed; they didn't depend on matter.

Even Isaac Newton believed this theory did not believe his theory actually explained what gravity really is, only how gravity works in terms of motion and energy.

The prominent modern physicist Alexander Valenkin states that the mathematical laws of physics seem to exist in a platonic realm, independent of motion and matter.

Everything I have read and heard convinces me that math is discovered not invented, and that it is an immaterial reality onto itself independent of physical matter and energy.
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Einstein devoted much of his later research to trying to apply 5th degree equations to quantum physics. Quantum physics failed to comply, though, so the best they have now is string theory, which ends up a collection of kluged matrices within matrices, and nobody is happy with the limits.
 
Daylight63 said:
Cy, literally NO ONE is suggesting that. LITERALLY NO ONE. You make everyone's points into something you debate against, even when they never said it.

NO ONE thinks quantities had to wait for humans to exist. No one.
So stop trying to argue the strawman all the time.
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LOL. Wrong. ITN has repeatedly been making the case that number and numerical quantity do not have any reality independent of humans, and numerical quantity needed to wait for humans to invent integers. :laugh: -->

Into the Night said:
No, it doesn't, Sybil. There is no one to count them.
Mathematics was created by humans.
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Into the Night said:
The axiom defining '1' and another defining '+' and a third defining '=' is what defines '2', and all the other positive integers.
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Into the Night said:
Meaningless. There is no one to count them.
Meaningless. There is no one to count them.
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"Do you really believe the moon is not there when you are not looking at it?'” - Einstein
:laugh:
 
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EdwinA said:
Einstein devoted much of his later research to trying to apply 5th degree equations to quantum physics. Quantum physics failed to comply, though, so the best they have now is string theory, which ends up a collection of kluged matrices within matrices, and nobody is happy with the limits.
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None of what you are discussing is quantum physics.
 
NiftyNiblick said:
I would opine that they are.
The presence of sub-atomic matter and energy,
in my view,
made the totally random manifestation of EVERYTHING ELSE inevitable.

To me, the origin of matter and energy is the only relevant unknown.
Once they existed in an infinite universe, however that may have occurred,
everything that's happened since was going to happen randomly with no other influence.

I can't swear that this is true,
but equally, I can't imagine any other plausible explanation.
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I would include the unaccounted for gravitational forces in our universe.
 
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