Are we at a turning point in world history?

T. A. Gardner said:
Yep. Through and through.
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Who told you that?

No, Fascism is not considered a leftist ideology. Here's why:

  • Economic Policy: Fascism supports a corporatist economy where the state and private businesses work in tandem, but private property and economic hierarchies are maintained. This is in stark contrast to leftist ideologies like socialism or communism, which advocate for collective or state ownership of the means of production and the abolition of class distinctions.
  • Political Orientation: Fascism is authoritarian, ultranationalist, and often militaristic. Leftist ideologies typically emphasize egalitarianism, internationalism, and workers' rights, which are fundamentally at odds with fascist principles. Fascism seeks to preserve or restore a hierarchical social order centered around the nation or race, rather than promoting equality.
  • Social Structure: Fascism tends to uphold traditional social hierarchies, promoting nationalism, racial purity, and often conservative moral values. Leftist ideologies, on the other hand, strive for social justice, reducing inequalities, and often challenge traditional social norms regarding gender, race, and class.
  • Opposition to Communism/Socialism: Historically, fascism emerged partly as a direct opposition to socialism and communism. Fascist regimes in Italy (Mussolini) and Germany (Hitler) explicitly fought against communist and socialist movements, seeing them as existential threats to their nationalistic and authoritarian projects.
  • Historical Context: The term "fascism" was coined by Mussolini, who initially was a socialist but moved towards a very different political philosophy. His fascism was a response to the perceived weaknesses of socialism and democracy, blending conservative, nationalist, and corporatist elements.
  • Philosophical Foundations: Fascist thinkers like Giovanni Gentile and Mussolini himself emphasized the state as an end in itself, with the individual's purpose being to serve the state or the nation, rather than the individual or collective liberation emphasized by leftist thought.

In summary, while fascism might adopt some leftist rhetoric for populist appeal (e.g., Mussolini's early socialist leanings or the Nazis' initial promises to workers), its core ideologies, practices, and historical implementations are fundamentally opposed to the principles of leftism. Instead, fascism is generally placed on the far right of the political spectrum, although political spectrums can be overly simplistic and not capture the nuances of ideologies.

@Grok
 
T. A. Gardner said:
As always, Joke Bribem is wrong. But he does have an excellent track record of being wrong stretching back over 40 years.

In 1910 to 1930-ish, the radical Left was holding revolutions all over the place--Russia, Mexico, Germany, Italy, Spain, to name a few. Today the radical Left is getting a smackdown for their pushing stupidity in politics on various nations, deservedly so.

You want your country to become a fucked-up dictatorship and shithole? Let the Left run it, and they will drive it straight into Hell.
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So, contrary to every historian, you believe Mussolini was a leftist. Even though he hated the left, liberals, and socialists.
 
Hume said:
How so?
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It embraces a strong central government, socialism, most Leftist ideals like public transit, universal healthcare, etc. Hitler for example embraced vegetarianism, instituted the world's first smoking ban, was for gun control, abolished alternatives to public education, put abortion into law, etc. That's all part and parcel of the Left in politics.
 
Hume said:
So, contrary to every historian, you believe Mussolini was a leftist. Even though he hated the left, liberals, and socialists.
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Well, to be fair, he was, for some time.

Benito Mussolini was indeed a leftist in his early political career:

  • Socialist Beginnings: Mussolini was initially a member of the Italian Socialist Party (Partito Socialista Italiano, PSI). He contributed to socialist newspapers and was known for his fiery, radical rhetoric. He was the editor of "Avanti!", the official newspaper of the PSI, where he promoted Marxist and revolutionary socialist ideas.
  • Expulsion from the PSI: His stance changed significantly with the outbreak of World War I. Initially an opponent of Italy's entry into the war, he later became an interventionist, believing that war could bring about a proletarian revolution or at least strengthen Italy's position. This led to his expulsion from the PSI in November 1914 because his pro-war stance was at odds with the party's pacifist position.
  • Formation of Fasci Italiani di Combattimento: After his expulsion, Mussolini formed the "Fasci Italiani di Combattimento" in 1919, which was initially a mixture of leftist and nationalist ideas. This group was far from the later fascist party in terms of ideology but did include some revolutionary elements.
  • Shift to Fascism: Over time, Mussolini's ideology shifted dramatically towards nationalism, authoritarianism, and anti-communism, culminating in what we recognize as fascism. This transition was marked by his alliance with conservative and nationalist forces, his embrace of corporatism, and his violent suppression of socialist and communist movements.

Mussolini's early leftist phase is a crucial part of his political evolution, but his later ideological shift to fascism is what he's predominantly remembered for. His journey from left to right on the political spectrum is one of the more notable transformations in 20th-century politics, illustrating the fluidity and complexity of political ideologies, especially during times of crisis and war.



@Grok
 
T. A. Gardner said:
It embraces a strong central government, socialism, most Leftist ideals like public transit, universal healthcare, etc. Hitler for example embraced vegetarianism, instituted the world's first smoking ban, was for gun control, abolished alternatives to public education, put abortion into law, etc. That's all part and parcel of the Left in politics.
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Hitler was a Nazi, not a Fascist.

While Fascism and Nazism share many similarities, they are not exactly the same. Here are some key distinctions and overlaps:

Similarities:
  1. Authoritarianism: Both ideologies advocate for a strong, centralized state with dictatorial powers.
  2. Nationalism: Both emphasize national pride, unity, and superiority, often at the expense of minorities or other nations.
  3. Anti-Communism and Anti-Socialism: Both were vehemently opposed to communism and socialism, seeing them as threats to their nationalistic and hierarchical visions.
  4. Corporatism: Both supported a form of economic corporatism where the state and businesses work closely to control the economy, although the specifics might differ.
  5. Militarism: Both glorified military strength and often pursued expansionist or imperialistic policies.
  6. Cult of Leadership: Both ideologies revolved around a charismatic leader who was seen as embodying the state or nation (e.g., Mussolini in Italy, Hitler in Germany).
  7. Suppression of Opposition: Both regimes suppressed dissent, political opposition, and free speech through various means, including propaganda, censorship, and violence.

Differences:
  1. Racial Ideology:
    • Nazism: Has a much stronger emphasis on racial purity, anti-Semitism, and the concept of the Aryan race. The Holocaust, aimed at exterminating Jews and other "undesirables," is a manifestation of this ideology.
    • Fascism: While Mussolini's Italy did have racial laws and was anti-Semitic, especially towards the end of his regime, racism was not as central to the ideology as in Nazism. Italian fascism initially focused more on national rather than racial identity.
  2. Origin and Development:
    • Fascism started in Italy with Mussolini, who initially had socialist roots before evolving into a nationalist and authoritarian leader. Italian fascism was more about reviving the Roman Empire, national pride, and class collaboration.
    • Nazism (National Socialism) was developed in Germany by Hitler and the NSDAP (National Socialist German Workers' Party). It combined elements of socialism (in name only, as it was not socialist in practice) with extreme nationalism, anti-Semitism, and eugenics.
  3. Economic Policies:
    • Fascism in Italy allowed for more private ownership under state control, aiming at autarky (economic self-sufficiency).
    • Nazism initially promised economic reforms for workers but quickly shifted towards militarization of the economy, focusing on rearmament and later, the war economy, with significant state control but still involving private enterprise.
  4. Cultural and Ideological Focus:
    • Fascism often invoked Roman history and culture, focusing on restoring Italy's past glory.
    • Nazism was deeply rooted in German nationalism and folklore, with a pseudo-scientific racial theory at its core.

In summary, while both fascism and Nazism share authoritarian, nationalist, and anti-communist traits, Nazism's extreme racial ideology, particularly its anti-Semitism, sets it apart from Italian fascism. Both ideologies are on the extreme right of the political spectrum but have distinct national flavors and emphases.


@Grok
 
Hume said:
Most nations in the world have universal healthcare. The US may be the only one without it
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No, the US is not the only country in the world without universal healthcare. Approximately 73 out of 195 countries, or about 37% of countries, have implemented universal health coverage (UHC).


@Grok
 
The Death of the West and the next flowering of the Chinese Empire are very important events.

If the American Empire does not incinerate the planet on the way out.
 
Hume said:
I have no idea what "@Grok" is. You provide no link. I never read unsourced quotes.
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