As Feminists, as Libertarians, You Cannot Defend Capitalism

[/MSG/]

Which socialist countries have had production owned near exclusively by the state?

Soviets, early China, North Korea, Cuba, Venezuela....and they're also all autocratic with democratic institutions.

 

[I'm Watermark]

Soviets, early China, North Korea, Cuba, Venezuela....and they're also all autocratic with democratic institutions.

The Soviet Union had a robust cooperative infrastructure, both in agriculture and, I think, industry. This is also true about Cuba, and Venezuela. The North Koreans have abandoned socialism long ago, actually purging the word communism from their constitution.

 

[Ishmael Pequod]

The Soviet Union had a robust cooperative infrastructure, both in agriculture and, I think, industry. This is also true about Cuba, and Venezuela. The North Koreans have abandoned socialism long ago, actually purging the word communism from their constitution.

So what caused the collapse of the Soviet Union?

 

[Damocles]

The Soviet Union had a robust cooperative infrastructure, both in agriculture and, I think, industry. This is also true about Cuba, and Venezuela. The North Koreans have abandoned socialism long ago, actually purging the word communism from their constitution.

You don't know anything about the Soviet Union...

Agriculture was the most oppressed portion of their economy. They took a monster in agriculture (The Russian Empire under the Czars) and turned it into fail.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture_in_the_Soviet_Union

Despite immense land resources, extensive machinery and chemical industries, and a large rural work force, Soviet agriculture was relatively unproductive. Output was hampered in many areas by the climate (only 10% of the Soviet Union's land was arable) and poor worker productivity. Conditions were best in the temperate black earth belt stretching from Ukraine through southern Russia into the east, spanning the extreme southern portions of Siberia.

Their highest productivity was in the extremely small private plots allowed in later years.

 

[Damocles]

So what caused the collapse of the Soviet Union?

Well, apparently they were all feminists. So, everything should have been running fine.

There is nothing inherently feminist about socialism, in fact, feminism survives and thrives in the freest economic circumstances but is curbed in the more controlled economic environments.

 

[/MSG/]

The Soviet Union had a robust cooperative infrastructure, both in agriculture and, I think, industry.

Yes, most people do cooperate at gun point, so I suppose you could theoretically call it that. Also, dead people are much more likely to share their property, so that's cooperation of a sorts as well.

This is also true about Cuba, and Venezuela.

See above...

The North Koreans have abandoned socialism long ago, actually purging the word communism from their constitution.

Yes, it was a ringing success for them wasn't it?

 

[Timshel]

women can choose now.

There was a time when a woman could not choose to marry or to work outside the home.

Now we can.


capitalism provides the flux needed for people to make their own way.


how many female business owners do we have today?

how many did we have back when women were forced to stay home?

another problem is now with this freedom of work out or work home families are increasingly choosing who stays home with the kids.

MEN now do that.

do yo9u NOT care about them?

are they being exploited?

NO they are free to make the choice.


capitalism creates a dynamic world that forces any leaders we choose to face the power of the pocketbook.


any system without the dynamic force of capitalism and how it can change the game at any moment keeps any leader who makes their way to power much less capable fo becoming a dictator.

shit changes


capitalism makes sure shit is always changing and that the levers on power are slippery.


You cant have real freedom without it

Commie.

 

[canceled.2021.1]

The Soviet Union had a robust cooperative infrastructure, both in agriculture and, I think, industry. This is also true about Cuba, and Venezuela. The North Koreans have abandoned socialism long ago, actually purging the word communism from their constitution.

 

[Minister of Truth]

Note to Iola and Rose:

You are confusing politics with economics. Democracy is a political system (power invested in the private citizens) and socialism is an economic system (state owns/controls the means of production). Now, you can attempt to wed democracy with socialism in hopes of avoiding the traditional, perennial bloodbaths that have flooded the history books, but you will still face the following problems:

1) The citizenry can relinquish power by voting away democracy. It might go slowly, beginning with minority rights, but it can happen.
2) Human beings default to stupid and learn to be lazy under many circumstances. At least 75% of the citizenry will not be educated or intelligent enough to make business decisions. People will cut corners on whatever portion of the economy/production line they are handling, because everything else is provided to them for free. If only socialists understood people...
3) As a result of 1 & 2, you are highly likely (guaranteed, really) to wind up with demagogues being ceded power by the citizens to basically take over running the economy. This eventually leads to the French Revolution scenario where waring factions and demagogues are settling scores, persecuting ever-increasing groups of "public enemies," etc., etc , rinse, wash, and repeat.

 

[BRUTALITOPS]

Socialism is NOT workable in the real world.

TOO much power gets concentrated into too few hands.


When you have individual humans creating demand you can not have life long bureacrats desiding what will drive our economy.

It has to be fluid and the leadership has to be dumped and hired as the market response needs.

GO STUDY every country that tried this mess in reality.

Its a HUGE fail.

FACE FACTS

PREACH IT DESH!

 

[BRUTALITOPS]

Desh, knock it off. I'm trying - I can't devote all my time to the internet. If you want me to argue with you, sure, I will, but give me a chance to.

Where to start... You don't understand what socialism is. As iolo says, it's a system based on democratic control by the workers. This can include markets of cooperatives, or communes, or state distribution centers. No matter how it manifests itself, it's always democratic.

The government is a socialist country may be an instrument for workers to control the trade of goods, or it may be something that doesn't interfere too much in the economy, or it may not even exist. The premier examples of socialist states were/are based on cooperation between a strong central government, and strong organs of democratic control from below.

how do you expect the button pushers to understand the ins and outs and nuances of running a successful business? People can barely keep up with making educated political decisions, and yet we have you advocating for the lowest common denominator to be in charge? What if an engineer wants to build a new product that they have envisioned.. do they now have to sell that idea to a bunch of mouth breathing idiots that wouldn't be able to grasp what type of work would need to go into it? Will the button pushers understand all the technological jargon and also understand the potential market for such a device?

 

[BRUTALITOPS]

I'm going to exit gracefully. If I was wrong about you, then this thread should have made that clear. But, unfortunately, your drug frenzy in front of a keyboard only proved my point.

so conflicted right now.

 

[Scut Farkus]

how do you expect the button pushers to understand the ins and outs and nuances of running a successful business? People can barely keep up with making educated political decisions, and yet we have you advocating for the lowest common denominator to be in charge? What if an engineer wants to build a new product that they have envisioned.. do they now have to sell that idea to a bunch of mouth breathing idiots that wouldn't be able to grasp what type of work would need to go into it? Will the button pushers understand all the technological jargon and also understand the potential market for such a device?

That would actually be better than allowing a bunch of greedy financiers who only do things for profit, with little to no care about the future of the society in general, or other people.

 

[Scut Farkus]

Note to Iola and Rose:

You are confusing politics with economics. Democracy is a political system (power invested in the private citizens) and socialism is an economic system (state owns/controls the means of production). Now, you can attempt to wed democracy with socialism in hopes of avoiding the traditional, perennial bloodbaths that have flooded the history books, but you will still face the following problems:

1) The citizenry can relinquish power by voting away democracy. It might go slowly, beginning with minority rights, but it can happen.
2) Human beings default to stupid and learn to be lazy under many circumstances. At least 75% of the citizenry will not be educated or intelligent enough to make business decisions. People will cut corners on whatever portion of the economy/production line they are handling, because everything else is provided to them for free. If only socialists understood people...
3) As a result of 1 & 2, you are highly likely (guaranteed, really) to wind up with demagogues being ceded power by the citizens to basically take over running the economy. This eventually leads to the French Revolution scenario where waring factions and demagogues are settling scores, persecuting ever-increasing groups of "public enemies," etc., etc , rinse, wash, and repeat.

Economics and politics are actually the same. Sorry Charlie.

 

[Dantès]

Dear Rose,

I have been a stay at home since 1987 or so.


By making that choice I was able to save money and rent out property we owned to build for our retirement.

IT was NOT a punishment to me and it actually brought my family many many good things including a son that had a wonderful childhood and even gave other kids a better childhood merely by being his friend.


saying its unpaid is horseshit.

It paid my family back in spades.


what you want is for some bueracrat to deside what gets made and sold in this country.

that is a recipe for disaster.


The people deciding will not be making the decisions on the right information.


take a look at EVERY time you ideas were tried in reality?

You see socialism is the best form of government on paper.

that is not true when you transfer it to human reality.


it failed every time

we don't need to mess with historically failed ideas.

there are ideas that do work


Like well regulated capitalism.

There are plenty of countries such as Sweden and Finland where socialism has not failed and there are plenty of other countries where there is a much more productive mix of capitalism and socialism than America that are doing quite well indeed, Germany is an example. You are using your rather truncated knowledge of the Soviet Union (unnamed though it is) to radically and irrationally distort your thinking about the possibilities that exist under other systems. Everything isn't a commodity and neither are people, but under capitalism that is most certainly the tendency if not the case. I just looked at some pictures of a New Year's Eve gathering with a friend of mine, of some mutual friends, who then posted those pictures to their facebook pages, and we both concluded that these women (my friend is also a woman) not only internalized their own commodification, but the pictures they posted actually reflected that commodification and of course the comments from others reflected that commodification as well. It is this that is at the heart of American capitalism and it is this that makes the whole system so repugnant to so many of us.

 

[evince]

they are NOT truly socialist countries.

They have capitalism

they just have more socialist elements to their governments than we do.

That is fine with me.

but the fact remains that TRUE socialism is NOT workable

neither is unfettered or improperly fettered capitalism.


They both turn into something other than the original plan in very short order.


Capitalism HAS to be part of anything we do or failure will insue

 

[evince]

As Feminists, as Libertarians, You Cannot Defend Capitalism

this is the title of the thread.


the OP is dead wrong.

capitalism done correctly is the only way

 

[Truth Detector]

I started a thread, suggesting that posters ignore her when she acts like this.
Another poster brought up "shunning" and I realized that this was exactly the word I should have used.

Until she changes her behavior, she should be shunned.

Aside from the idiotic premise and argument of this thread, the only way to prevent evince from her lunatic crapflooding is to remember the thread ban feature.

 

[Truth Detector]

The Soviet Union had a robust cooperative infrastructure, both in agriculture and, I think, industry. This is also true about Cuba, and Venezuela. The North Koreans have abandoned socialism long ago, actually purging the word communism from their constitution.

Wow...is this what they are teaching in our universities these days???!!!

No wonder an economic idiot likeObama can get elected.

 

[evince]

Aside from the idiotic premise and argument of this thread, the only way to prevent evince from her lunatic crapflooding is to remember the thread ban feature.

so you too hate capitalism?